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[Ethidium]

Something i couldn't see in the to do list (although it has been mooted before in these forums) which would be useful even if the subterranean world weren't about to get gnarly, would be seismological surveys. The thought I had, and I know this has been brought up before, was:

Dynamite.


I know there are a a lot of people who are against the idea for practical/game balance reasons and for... well, essentially for aesthetic reasons, and that it all hinges on a (currently non-existent) explosion mechanic. I'll try to address those issues in that order:

    Obviously dynamite has a plethora of uses besides seismology (mining, fishing, advanced diplomacy...). As such a powerful tool, of course it needs to be expensive and dangerous, for balance reasons. It should require a complex economic supply chain, and should carry a risk of explosion during manufacture (as happened to the brothers Nobel), unless made by a legendary alchemist.
    I guess there should also be a risk of cave-ins with every blast, perhaps also dependent on the skill level of the user. Furthermore, persistent blasts might also really piss off the denizens of the deeper strata, and i don't think they'd just settle to bang on the ceiling...
    Dynamite could create as many problems as it solve, and could be balanced into the game (and if it fell into the hands of the goblins... hehehe)

    The "aesthetics" of the issue then... I guess people are generally thinking 'swords and sorcery' when they play, but i think dwarves play a very specific role in these fantasy scenarios. Dwarves (and gnomes, in other works) are generally depicted as technologically interested - it's become as integral to their character as arboriculture is to the elves. I see no reason why they shouldn't have the means to access this kind of technology.

   About the explosion mechanic... are earthquakes being put into the game? In a way, an explosion is like an earthquake, with a little instantaneous mining thrown in. I'm no programmer, but i think it could be done without much work.

I would have explosives made at the alchemists workshop, using:
    Acids - to be made at the alchemists, from alcohols (in x'al glass only )
    Rendered Fat from the kitchen
    Clay or Sawdust (sawdust also has many uses, and would be a consistent by-product of woodworking)

   Further to the idea of seismology, the blasts would be made from purpose-built structures on the surface. The readings would come from several subterranean mechanical structures and require specialist interpretation in a suitable Office, thus allowing for a considerable degree of inaccuracy and therefore fun surprises.

Looking back at previous forum posts, i guess i'm not suggesting anything all that radical, but i am going into details... Apologies if I'm needlessly retreading old ground here - newbie on the boards

[Neonivek]

Wasn't Dynamite invented by a Mr. Nobel?

I think it is by far too modern.

[BlazingDav]

i wouldnt say dynamite be used as an explosive, but gunpowder maybe? afterall it can first and dynamite is actually supposed to be a more stable and safe explosive anyway, where as gunpowder, musket rifles, cannons and the like... not unheard of to blow up mid use =3

anyway i would say use gunpowder the older grandfather of dynamite, though i guess that may have been suggested already =/

[Keilden]

Dynamite is to safe for dwarfs to use. We need somthing that can explode if a cat walks on it.

[Neonivek]

Alright after a bit of research. Dynamite was created by Mr. Nobel in the year 1866.

[Guy Montag]

Hence the Nobel Peace Prize.

If we are going to have dynamite as a feature, might as well have bolt-action rifles, artillery, nerve gas and trains.

I'm sure it will all fit into the fantasy setting somehow.

[praguepride]

Don't forget gattling guns, hot air balloons, railroad mounted artillery guns, tanks...

It's surprising what they invented during the American Civil War

[ThtblovesDF]

Donīt forget the internet where people will jump to none existent conclusions...

There already is a explosive in the game, but strangely no cannons/rifles spawned from its existence, now stop making stuff up.

[Soadreqm]

Hot air balloons are scheduled for the Steampunk Arc, which isn't scheduled at all. I expect trains might fall to that category as well. Some minecarts might actrually really make it to the game once Toady finishes all the other parts of the game from his underground fallout shelter following the Robot War of -86.

And whenever I hear of explosives in DF, I think of the battle of Helms Deep in LotR, where Saruman blasts a hole to the wall with something that was obviously gunpowder in the movie, most likely gunpowder in the book, and seen by those present as just another devious wizard trick wizards can do. Explosives can work in a fantasy setting, as long as they are rarely used, expensive, often not worth the effort and only understood by those already up to their necks in esoteric lore.

So, if explosives get put in the game, there should be some strict system in place to see that not everyone gets them. At the simplest it could require a master-level alchemist. Or, if some kind of technological discovery system gets put in, tracking down old books written by some half-forgotten mercury-crazed alchemists of old and interpreting their secret paranoid alchemy code and experimenting with the formula a bit trying to make it usable, all without blowing your arms off (which might still require a master-class alchemist). Or, just give explosives only to wizards, and restrict them from dwarves altogether. Controlling a wizard tower is one of the far future goals, and giving them access to toys others don't get would be an easy way to establish some uniqueness.

[Drakale]

Dynamite is to safe for dwarfs to use. We need somthing that can explode if a cat walks on it.

Early dynamite did have a tendency to "sweat" nitroglycerin after a while. This would indeed go boom at the slightest disturbance.

[Skorpion]

Dynamite was just a safer version of the already-existing nitroglycerine. Nitro itself would be perfect for dwarves.

[alfie275]

Explosions aren't tht hard to do in a game like DF, you can even have explosion that go further in a narrow hallway than in the open, like in real life. Just program in an invisible liquid/gas that expands rapidly and when there is 7/7 it mines adjecent tiles with the speed of a proficient ( depends on blast power) miner.

[Footkerchief]

Old quote from Toady on gunpowder:

Given that anything I add which is both highly controversial and unnecessary will be optional, people can afford to be calm about future additions.<P>A lot of it comes down to where I devote my energy.  Technological innovations sort of fall into a category with projects like tileset support.  These options would make some people happy and expand the audience, while taking up some of my time that other people want put somewhere else.  As they get further and further away from what we've already got, they are less likely to have time found for them.<P>For those interested in a specific development timeline for gunpowder, I'll be faced with the question when I make the alchemist's workshop more interesting (assuming that workshop continues to exist).  Handling the workshop itself is a middle-priority matter, since the game elements involved aren't crucial but the the building is languishing in a limbo surrounded by mysterious useless raw entries like golden salve and gnomeblight.  I may or may not add optional gunpowder around that time.  I don't know.<P>Regarding gunpowder and some basic associated technologies, I can see myself playing either way, really, since I'm not that picky.  If I had to choose between having gunpowder on or off in a release distribution init file, it would be off, because Arnold got shot in Commando not Conan, and the Argonauts didn't get shot by handguns or cannons, and Medusa had a bow not a gun, and stuff.  We grew up with that crap, and our core DF, our myth/fantasy game, mainly hovers around that sort of fluffy nostalgia, but it doesn't need to impact you more than a one line file change.<P>Electricity is in about the same category for me as steam locomotives, I guess, as far as whether I'd ever find time to work on something like that for this game.  I'd really rather detail the current picture than expand the canvas so much, since there'd likely be a lot of empty space in curious places.  Exploring ideas like that might even be more time-efficient in separate projects without hauling the constraints from DF along, though of course some of the mixing with existing DF elements would lead to amusement.<p>[ November 06, 2007: Message edited by: Toady One ]

To put it simply: gunpowder (even OPTIONAL gunpowder) is an iffy enough addition that something as explicitly modern as dynamite is pretty unlikely to make it in.

[Sowelu]

The fact that gunpowder would be "expensive" is meaningless.  I mean sure we have balance problems and sure nobody would be forced to use it, but any ten-year-old fort can crank out just about anything with essentially no limits...

[Sordid]

I would actually like to see that, preferably with gunpowder (or, more specifically, black powder, not the modern smokeless powders that are also referred to as gunpowder these days). I don't think it would be all that difficult to balance out in the game, given the fact that gunpowder is pretty unstable, has a rather short shelf life, and its manufacture on a medieval tech level is fairly complicated, time-consuming, dangerous, and expensive (involving large amounts of manure, in other words necessitating that you maintain a large herd of horses).

On the subject of what fits and what doesn't fit into the DF setting, I'm actually not looking forward to magic being implemented into the game at all. DF is pretty much the only fantasy game with humans, dwarves, and elves that doesn't have magic in it, and I like this slighly more realistic take on fantasy, with dwarves veering a little bit into steampunk with their water wheels, axles, machines, and so on. About the only thing missing are actual steam engines. So yeah, I don't think explosives would be out of place here.

The fact that gunpowder would be "expensive" is meaningless.  I mean sure we have balance problems and sure nobody would be forced to use it, but any ten-year-old fort can crank out just about anything with essentially no limits...

That won't help you much, black powder not kept in watertight containers will degrate pretty quickly, so you'll basically have to make it when you need it. And you can forget about explosive traps.
More importantly, I'd say building up your fort so that you can unleash all kinds of insanity upon the world is the whole point of the game.