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[Sowelu]

Silverionmox has won me over.  I no longer agree that images should be forced random, but now think it's important that players be allowed to specify.  (And who said arguing on the internet doesn't change anyone's mind?)

Mostly I agree because now I want to build a bunch of obelisks, decorate them with images of carp and seaweed and circles, and then flood them.

[zchris13]

ZChris: wow, you feel strongly about this, huh?

I don't want the players to have any control over dwarves' creative activities. That includes artifacts, engravings, decorations, and all that jazz. Maybe someday Toady will add support for dwarves thinking "Oh, hey, this is the diining room, I guess making images of the mayor's death by starvation would be inappropriate." But that's a far, far cry from the player saying "Hey you, engrave this," even if "this" is a theme instead of a specific subject.

This is like those suggestions to improve pathfinding by having the player mark out checkpoints in their fortresses. The right dwarven solution is to make the dwarves/game smarter so that the dwarves/game decide for them/itself what should be done. Having the player intercede is just a hack.

• fixed
• I said nothing about artifacts, decorations, and jazz, which I happen to like.
• The difficult thing is that some things just can't be obvious to the computer.  You have to tell it.  It has no way to know if your deathtrap for elves, immagrants, and goblins is a deathtrap maze, or exploratory mining tunnels.  The potential for screwups is off the charts.  I was going to ask for some examples, but is there really a precedent for DF?
• Maybe it is a hack, but it is a step in the direction that some people are urging us to go in.  I have heard suggestions where we designate a room, and the dwarves choose what furniture to place in it.  This could tie in quite nicely with a system like that.

Just to round it off, all hail Toady!

[numeral]

Just to round it off, all hail Toady!

carp be upon him, now can we get back to the original topic of this post? engraving orders, not fleshing out engravings
anybody want me to copy paste all this crap and make a new topic since this apparently something a lot of you want?

[scale_e]

I reckon, imho, that what the dwarves engrave should be dice rolled.
Having the ability to surround your dining hall with a story that plays out, read left from right around the room would be fantastic, but Urist should decide to do that (if his skill is high enough) not you.
However. It's a bit silly that Urist decides to engrave an awsome picture of your Legendary Axedwarf slaying a Dragon... in the pump room.
What I'd like, is occasionally, really really skilled engravers get "inspired" by something and pester you to let them engrave something awesome.
For example, Urist sees a hunting dog rip the head off a gremlin, and he thinks "Yeah, that shit is something special." So he goes and petitions your mayor for somewhere to engrave that scene. And you pick where he puts it.
So Urist has a really good Dwarven Wine biscuit, and wants to tell the world, so you put the engraving of "Urist McEngraver and the Biscuit. The biscuit is being eaten. Urist is giving everyone the 'O' face." in the dining hall... or Urists room.
Also, maybe set an area for your good engravers to cruise around and look at stuff. Like maybe on the outskirts of a battle. Sort of like a photo-journalist... but for dwarves... with stonework. Whatever. You get the idea.
This way, everyone gets what they want.

[numeral]

I reckon, imho, that what the dwarves engrave should be dice rolled.
Having the ability to surround your dining hall with a story that plays out, read left from right around the room would be fantastic, but Urist should decide to do that (if his skill is high enough) not you.
However. It's a bit silly that Urist decides to engrave an awsome picture of your Legendary Axedwarf slaying a Dragon... in the pump room.
What I'd like, is occasionally, really really skilled engravers get "inspired" by something and pester you to let them engrave something awesome.
For example, Urist sees a hunting dog rip the head off a gremlin, and he thinks "Yeah, that shit is something special." So he goes and petitions your mayor for somewhere to engrave that scene. And you pick where he puts it.
So Urist has a really good Dwarven Wine biscuit, and wants to tell the world, so you put the engraving of "Urist McEngraver and the Biscuit. The biscuit is being eaten. Urist is giving everyone the 'O' face." in the dining hall... or Urists room.
Also, maybe set an area for your good engravers to cruise around and look at stuff. Like maybe on the outskirts of a battle. Sort of like a photo-journalist... but for dwarves... with stonework. Whatever. You get the idea.
This way, everyone gets what they want.

why not just combine both? your idea would probably be great for fey mood engravings, except instead of having to get materials you also have to mark out a high traffic area for the engravings(AND get materials so he could inlay them with gems and woods and rock and metal.)
I'm wondering if traffic history is even recorded though, if not it would probably be a cunt and a half to code into the game and probably not worth the trouble, but on the other hand if your dwarf asks for 10 wall tiles or 15 floor tiles to engrave you could throw it in some abandoned corridor or mined out vein or something where nobody will even see it.

but on the other hand if you wanna make a carp obelisk(tm) and only allow master or higher dwarves to engrave it you can do that too.

p.s. if you dwarves inlay walls with wood perhaps hippies could tantrum while on the way to your depot and start massacring dwarves

[scale_e]

nah, having them as moods wouldn't work. Moods imply that the dwarf is picking everything. Olon claims the pump room and demands bars of aluminium and shark bones or some such nonsense.

[praguepride]

I'll just leave this here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

picture i'm not going to repost because it's a waste of bandwidth, go find the original you lazy bastard!

THAT WAS AWESOME! That picture made this whole thread worthwhile in my books. A++++

Also, if this isn't the first place that pic's been posted...meh, it's the first time I've seen it so in my book you get the credit for it

[Shoku]

Best of both worlds seems to be just having the Engraver check if the wall is defined as part of a dining room or whatnot. Undefined areas could still be completely their own preference but the dining room should at least have a slant towards certain types of things and away from others.

[zchris13]

Best of both worlds seems to be just having the Engraver check if the wall is defined as part of a dining room or whatnot. Undefined areas could still be completely their own preference but the dining room should at least have a slant towards certain types of things and away from others.

Well, yeah. I'm with him.

And with the new hospital room designations, and other such, we will probably be able to designate entrance halls and such.  Where our dwarves will engrave entrance themed things. Out of common sense.  Because it is an entrance hall.

[Silverionmox]

Best of both worlds seems to be just having the Engraver check if the wall is defined as part of a dining room or whatnot. Undefined areas could still be completely their own preference but the dining room should at least have a slant towards certain types of things and away from others.

Well, yeah. I'm with him.

And with the new hospital room designations, and other such, we will probably be able to designate entrance halls and such.  Where our dwarves will engrave entrance themed things. Out of common sense.  Because it is an entrance hall.

What's entrance themed? Threatening, for the goblins? Taunting, for the elves? Official, for the liason? Practical, for new immigrants? Historical for the long-time inhabitants? Warning, for the kobolds? Family pictures of the nobles, whose fortress it is after all? I'm willing to give the dwarves their artistic freedom, but the player needs that too.

[AncientEnemy]

I don't know how the whole 'spheres' thing works really but personally I would be in favor of being able to have -some- choice in what was engraved; perhaps from a selection of just a few very broad categories. maybe something along the lines of:

Historical (this could be of battles, the ascension of such and such to the leadership of the arrow of harnesess, etc)
Domestic (plump helmets, a delicious tallow roast, a stone mug, perhaps an artifact you made)
Warfar (Urist Mcgruff the crime dog biting off that goblin's head, the snatching of baby urist mcchildprotectionservices in 208)

i'm a little out of it at the moment and i concede the way i've organized it is pretty poor, but hopefully it conveys the idea. a small selection of very broad themes, which would give a basic ability to decorate your fort more appropriately, but still leave it mostly to chance/dwarven preference.

the designations you set would be more of a guideline for the engraver, with no guarantee that he won't stick in some circles and clouds in for good measure, or even make some images that aren't part of the theme in the room -anyway-.


I also definately support the idea of engravers coming up with an idea on their own and then letting the player decide where he wants it. perhaps even in the form of an 'artifact engraving', which might require some ingredients (a mural of Windyshorts the pigtail thong, masterfully engraved and then encrusted with gems as well)