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Author Topic: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking  (Read 2705 times)

MuonDecay

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2008, 09:18:15 pm »

Say what you will, I do not want to jack a horse, ever.

Bad pun  :P
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2008, 10:54:10 pm »

Well, it's perfectly possible.  My dad played a multiplayer star trek space combat game back in college where it actually printed the ASCII map up on paper every turn.  Of course then people started getting monitors, and they all owned the people who were stuck with printers because they could view the map allot faster. :P

Well, unless he was bullshitting me with that story.
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Draco18s

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2008, 11:32:27 pm »

Then you don't allow pausing.  Jeeze.  Of course the game wouldhave to have a better interface first so you didn't have to kill a baby calf to gain access to the appropriate window to see that someone might be stuck.  Just because YOU don't WANT multiplayer doesn't mean it's not possible.

Not allowing pausing of anykind is like rediculous.  Have you ever paused the game for any reason and was glad that it was paused because it gave you time to react to something?

I'm not going to debate this further as there are a dozen other threads about multiplayer DF and no one can agree on the best meathod.
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Mikademus

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2008, 05:58:13 pm »

Oh, these ideas are GREAT! Perhaps Toady would let you join Bay12 and you could do the multiplayah game and it would be cool but dun forgat the platform and GTA action ok? Because, like dwarves are short but so iz Mario and he can jump anyways so I think Dwarf Frotress wuld be really great with racing and platforms. And dragons could be like Bowser, but princez Peach wouldnt be very pretty as a dwarf but Toadstoll would be great in caves and goblins could ride like warboars! But since da best games iz like GTA and Mafia it would be better with rap and rasta for just hanging and chillin' instead of that harp crap.
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2008, 09:49:01 pm »

What the heck does Mafia have to do with any of the stuff you mentioned after it? :-\
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Cthulhu

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 10:07:38 pm »

A winner is you, Mikademus.
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Mikademus

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2008, 06:15:28 am »

Oh no, my ruse has been uncovered!

I'm just astonished my obviously sarcastic OP actually spawned one full page of serious discussion on DF/Rougelike MP... O.o
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Quote from: Silverionmox
Quote from: bjlong
If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Andir

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2008, 06:37:24 am »

Oh no, my ruse has been uncovered!

I'm just astonished my obviously sarcastic OP actually spawned one full page of serious discussion on DF/Rougelike MP... O.o
Multiplayer (aka, socializing with other gamers in game: for me) is a very important issue.  Being a programmer with not a lot of time (because of games like this(!), work, and life) to make my own version is also kind of like having your hands tied... and the fact that this isn't open so I can add my own features and submit them "for the greater good" without having to make my own game from the ground up... really irks me on a deep level.
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SirPenguin

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2008, 08:53:39 am »

The world would run at a constant speed, set by the host.  If you really wanted to allow players to pause, you could also do so, but it would pause everyone's game.  Again, server would send a broadcast: "Paused by Andir..."

That is almost certainly doomed for failure.  The more people you have connected the more it'll be paused as people take time to designate new mining areas, queue up work orders, check for trapped masons, etc.

DF
Does
Not
Do
Multiplayer.

It does not do MP in the traditional sense, sure. But two players running two forts in the same world? Certainly possible.
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Draco18s

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2008, 01:11:07 pm »

It does not do MP in the traditional sense, sure. But two players running two forts in the same world? Certainly possible.

No it can't.  There has been endless discussion on this and it comes down to this:

What if the two forts are running at a different speed?

Paused for various activities counts as a speed.
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Andir

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2008, 02:03:55 pm »

You can't win an argument with Draco, because he has a way that he plays this game and any other way will definitely not work.  You could come up with a totally workable system that needs no pausing because the interface actually doesn't suck allowing logging of activities, quick zooming to events on click, all kind of usability functions not capable with the current interface, the server runs at a constant speed and he would try to find another reason why it won't work because it doesn't fit in his world view.  It's no use arguing with him.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Draco18s

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2008, 02:20:10 pm »

Lets put it this way:

While playing DF you will want to pause, yes?

If so, then you're going to need to build a sychronized system that can handle one person pausing without disrupting other players, for example the way the MAngband does it (turns auto-happen, but have some delay so those people busy shuffling around in their inventories for a thrown weapon aren't mobbed in the time it takes to do it).  Downside: UNGODLY slow pace.  Took me 10 minutes to walk across town to the dungeon (and then I quit).

If no, then you need to find a way to deal with people not playing the same amount every day and not at the same time.  I.E. Forts Go Offline.  There are various problems with having a fort not-exist for 12 years while everyone else putters along (or not).  When the fort comes back, how does it synch up?  It just lost 12 years, was it running itself?  If so, we need to have a [R]etire Fort option in single player FIRST otherwise this can't be done.  If it's not running itself, how do you deal with the differing date?  We can ignore the year for the most part, but if he logged out in Granite and the date is now Hematite, how do you reconsile?  Ignore it too, and his date is what his date is?  But if the point of MPDF is to interact with other players, then...what was the point of having a bunch of unsychronized forts all running their own timelines doing their own thing?

If you're sending trade caravans (or armies) back and forth then you need to be able to reconsile that time difference, especially if the player logs out.

"I be sorry captane, but tha fort be gone.  Just gone, left a giant hole in tha ground."

And god forbid you have this world running both Fortress Mode and adventurers.  What if an adventurer wandering around in a fort suddenly finds that that fort's player just went offline?  How do you deal with him?

And as a note, I've been assuming that all the players are running their own forts, if you want a bunch of people doing ONE fort, that introduces another issue: you need to have everyone on at the same time, otherwise it just goes back to the daisy chain we currently have only using more network traffic and a dedicated server.

By the way, who's running the server?

You can't win an argument with Draco, because he has a way that he plays this game and any other way will definitely not work.  You could come up with a totally workable system that needs no pausing because the interface actually doesn't suck allowing logging of activities, quick zooming to events on click, all kind of usability functions not capable with the current interface, the server runs at a constant speed and he would try to find another reason why it won't work because it doesn't fit in his world view.  It's no use arguing with him.

Mostly because I contain all of the collected knowledge of all the previous arguments for why a multiplayer DF could and could not work.  It comes up that often.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 02:25:37 pm by Draco18s »
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Andir

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2008, 03:10:59 pm »

I need to stress this as I started typing it twice: (I'm not talking about MMO here...)

"While playing DF you will want to pause, yes?" 

Maybe, likely not... Like I said.  There are workarounds for pausing.  You will likely only need to pause to save a dwarf who is drowning?  Maybe move troops?  This could all be done in real time with other things happening in the background.  The whole game doesn't have to stop because you want to save a miner or plot out a dig path.  This already annoys the hell out of me.  I spend precious dig/build/processing time jsut laying out my fortress.  I'd love to be able to plan the fort while the game is running.  There are also multiplayer games that allow you to pause the whole game.  Many RTSs work this way.  (some concepts from MMO design can be used as to not send the entire world, just commands)

Who would host it?  I don't know.  Who normally hosts games when you play with friend(s)?  Why not make it flexible?  LIKE an MMO, they don't host every zone all the time.  Only those that are active.  (Active meaning an adventurer is walking through, or something along those lines.)  Take the water dynamics and scale them up.  Water isn't updated all the time, neither do the "counties."  (regions?)  There are all kinds of games that allow you to host a server of your own.  You could put it on your own server, your client, or your friend could host it.

As far I'm concerned you could even set it up to run all the time if you decided (aka, checked that box in the server screen) so that when you disconnect your fort still runs.  Again, I can't stress that the interface would need to change.  What if someone died while you were logged out?  When you log in, you will see that stuff happened when you weren't there.  You could click on them, update jobs, clean up.  It's al about fortress design.  If you flood all of your fortress it's because you didn't put proper designs into place to lock it down.  Do ship captains stop time to build a bulkhead door in the hull if they hit something?  That's a trade off you accept when you join your friends persistent server.  Most forts I've built are self maintainable anyway.  I get up and get something to drink, run to the store and come back to see how far they progressed.  I set up my traps, they catch or mutilate an enemy and the dwarf queues up a job to reset the trap or clean up.  Usually I'm confronted by an annoying pause screen if I step away because some miner found a cluster of Microline or something stupid.

Again, you're putting your idea of how the game is supposed to run (and or how it runs now) into the equation.  I'm not saying that nothing would have to change, but it's not impossible to imagine a multiplayer Dwarf Fortress.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

commondragon

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2008, 03:39:06 pm »

Multiplayer would need to be caravan/military interaction between fortresses in different worlds, and YES, pausing will need to be disabled.

The pausing issue will actually work as a kind of filter.  Multiplayer involves MUCH more skill than normal single player gaming, so it would work as a filter so you can easily crush those who are not yet ready to play multiplayer.

This would also have sore losers keeping the game constantly paused if they get angry because they lose, and would also start an entire grouping of people who rage of pausing, with "pause = ban" type games popping up everywere, and people just spiting them will join and pause, and a whole war about this will happen.

blargs then
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Draco18s

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Re: Platformer multiplayer racing. And horsejacking
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 08:07:49 pm »

This would also have sore losers keeping the game constantly paused if they get angry because they lose

Best line ever for why DF should not be multiplayer.
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