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[LordDemon]

As many have said, trading with elves looses it's interest after a while. They have very little that you can use after a while, and the "please don't cut down trees" can get on ones nerves.

I know the elves are getting some improvements, and was wondering is some sort of rare herbs would be a good idea. Elves are supposedl much closer to nature, so it would make sense they would also trade with goods of nature. Since logging is not their way, and food and cloth is produced in abundancy in dwarf fortress, they could sell herbs that dwarwes can't harvest, or grow. They could have very expensive herbs to sell, which could help speed up recovery, repair damage to organs, or even help regrow a new eye or arm. This would make them very important in trade, and forcing player to choose between chopping down all the trees or limiting the chopping but getting to buy the herbs in exchange.

As for diplomats and nobles, I would like foreign diplomats (and possible heroes, nobilities) to come visit their counter parts after dwarf economy starts. They would bring along servants, and friend, who could spend their money in your dwarf shops. This way your fortress could create money in trade without caravans. Sure, it would be in terms of foreing money, but since that money is made of precious metals, it would still have value. Richer travelers could even stay in your fortress for a while, spending their money before leaving. Paying for food, bed and shopping (since there is no entertainment to pay for) with gold that is inserted in your economy.

Travelling heroes could do the same. Every RPG player knows that after killing the dragon and taking it's treasure, some R&R with good food and possibility to buy new fancy stuff at the "city" is always welcome.

[Aquillion]

Elves do currently have at least one rare herb -- Sun Berries, which make the most valuable alcohol in the game.  Of course, once you get their seeds you don't really need more...

Part of the trick right now is to buy anything that might be even the slightest bit useful.  If you buy all the cloth off the elves every time they appear, you probably won't ever have to make any cloth yourself.

Also, since elves have 'ethical' ways to acquire wood, they should probably sell logs, too.  You can never have enough wood.

Live creatures you can extract stuff from would be something you'd expect the Elves to sell, too.  Maybe not purring maggots (those are only underground), but moghoppers, certainly.

[LordDemon]

That is the point I was trying to make. Right now, the elves can be useful, but only for a while. You can have your own sunberry fields, assuming the area is ok for growing, and cloth is secondary use once you get your own cloth production running.

The few logs the elves sell is not reason enough to skip cutting down trees. Employing even one dwarf all year will create a log stack much larger then the elves trade with.

The idea was that by making elves offer something, that you can't get from others makes them a valuable trade partner, instead of just a badly equipped poor versions of humans and dwarfs. I actually think each group should have something "special", that that player can only get from them. Elves could have organ healing herbs. Those would be worth a lot (depending on what kind of organ they heal), and you couln't get them elsewhere.

I think right now dwarfs sell steel, others won't. And humans sometimes seem to have exotic animals in cage. Every trader should have their special something, so you would wait each trade caravan as much.

[Aquillion]

Elves do have exotic animals in cages, I think.  And humans can bring bars and gemstones IIRC, just like dwarves.

Honestly, if anyone is going to trade the dwarves magical trinkets, it would probably be the elves.  So perhaps we should just wait for that.

At the very least, when Golden Salve actually does something, you're probably going to want to trade with the elves for that -- it's a bit of a bother to get otherwise.

Also, you shouldn't just think in terms of what you can/can't do yourself.  Getting wood, cloth, barrels and bins from the elves is just more efficient than making it yourself -- any half-decent food production line is going to spill over enough extra prepared meals to get you as much as you need.  Woodcutting yourself is dangerous, slow (because you have to drag the logs around), and involves multiple extra labors.  It makes sense to outsource as much of it as you can to the elves.

Also, it would be nice if they traded you a light, high-quantity substitute for charcoal.  Peat would work, say -- even the Romans used peat to fuel furnaces.

[Pilsu]

While making dwarves unable to harvest plants that grow in the wild is videogamey, I could certainly see the elves selling rare medicinal herbs and large variety of dyes. That said, plant types really need a tag for how common they are so the medicinal herbs can be made rare in the first place. Otherwise, those golden apples will be in every 8th or so bush

As for sunberries, they shouldn't grow at all outside good regions. Seems like an oversight really. As a temporary solution I'd remove their seeds


Don't forget that forcing the player to keep good relations with them lest their dwarves all die of pneumonia isn't much fun in itself. Elves should be tolerated, not relied upon. Humans could use something we can hate them for, as is they're terribly bland


Elves selling peat instead of wood is a very good idea

[LordDemon]

That said, plant types really need a tag for how common they are so the medicinal herbs can be made rare in the first place. Otherwise, those golden apples will be in every 8th
or so bush

That would be great idea, maybe also require a certain level from the harvester. Only legendary plant gatherer will know when the herb is at it's most potent, and will work. Others just take worthless leaves and roots.

forcing[/i] the player to keep good relations with them lest their dwarves all die of pneumonia isn't much fun in itself. Elves should be tolerated, not relied upon.

True. I was thinking more along the line of herbs to heal the unhealable battle damage, and insta-heal. They could work for deseaces too, by makin gthe sick dwarf healthy very quickly, instead of longer rest otherwise. They wouldn't be mandatory, but they would come in handy on some situations. Say your legendary crossbow dwarf loses his hand in melee, but manages to survive. He can live on with one hand, but I think the herb would be worth it.

Maybe humans fro mlarger cities could be a bit more arrogant. If they seem stronger, they could offer less money, or even request stuff free in order to "stay friendly". If they won't get it, they might attack. Repealing attacks and killing most of invaders would make them weaker again, forcing them to get more humble.

[Aquillion]

Like I mentioned, Golden Salve is already in the game, and the herbs for it are both rare (only available on a few sorts of sites) and impossible to farm.  That makes it perfect for the sort of elven trade-good you're describing, once its functionality is added.  And the elves already trade it, so I think Toady is way ahead of you here.

...actually, I remember when we'd ask him about magic waaaay back before DF was released, the first thing he mentioned was "maybe some things you'd trade for from the elves."  So I think he's been thinking along these lines for a while.