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Author Topic: Achron. First MTS.  (Read 6920 times)

Sowelu

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 03:31:39 pm »

You're on a board that is talking about video games.  Realism is off-topic.  And besides, you have no idea that timelines can't branch off in real life!  Certainly they couldn't with anything the mass of a person, but you really have no idea at all.
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Virex

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2009, 03:40:02 pm »

Someone needs to read up on the many worlds interpretation of quantummechanics ;)

As for the amount of RAM it costs, I think that'll be less then expected. The video's they're using seem to work without hickups, and they're speaking of skirmishes. And remember that their graphics at least seem less then top-nothc, so they have more resources to spare for funky tricks like this ;)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 03:53:14 pm by Virex »
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 04:24:37 pm »

I hardly knew of quantum physics when I created my Multiworlds. My view back then was that every time a decision is made, a number of parallel worlds spring up, each containing a possible choice the chooser could have taken. The chooser follows the path he chose, whereas all other worlds have copies of him, absolutely identical except for the originality of the consciousness.

Right now, I keep the Multiworlds only because they're too good to abandon. As I look into physics, I keep coming to the conclusion that the future IS set. They aren't universal laws if they allow wiggle room for the universe. You can never prove that in any given case, a particle or a waveform could have reacted differently. There may be factors we are not aware of. The human brain is no exception - it is merely a machine, an exceedingly complex one no doubt, but following its own laws. Without the benefit of being able to see the nature of the universe plainly, there is no way to say that in exactly the same circumstances, a human being would have come to a different decision. And yet I now believe that it is so.

It may be hard to wrap your head around the concept, but think about it. The human brain functions as it does because it constantly interfaces with all of its senses and memory, and they have an immediate effect on any process in the brain. Any decision you make is a series of signals passing through your neurons and synapses, that act more or less exactly like complex units of machine logic. If the state of this machine, however complex, is absolutely identical in all instances you check, the results of all logic paths will be exactly the same. If the decision is made a microsecond later than it would be, the state of the machine is changed and with the overwhelming complexity of logic in the human brain, the decision may be completely different. If the whole universe around us obeys the physical laws unerringly (even considering that we may not know the exact laws yet), and we ourselves cannot go against this biomachine logic, then what can change the future?

Bear in mind though, you do not have to believe anything I say. I simply state my opinion, and you are free to have your own. Indeed you must have your own, even if only slightly different - because your brain structure and experience are no doubt different from mine.

tl;dr: Since everything obeys the universal laws we may not even know yet, no action we take has not been foreseeable from the get-go.

Wow, this has gone ever so slightly off topic. :) Shall we start making another railroad tunnel?
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

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Soulwynd

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 04:25:20 pm »

Just to add something to all this crappy argument.

You cannot argue -Realism- against something we don't even know if it is possible or what would happen if it was. The grandfather paradox for example, maybe you can kill your grandfather and still exist afterward, because you did exist to do it.  As in the linearity of time could be individual to each particle and not as a whole. Or whenever you change time, you simply jump dimensions and when you jump back to the future, you never return to your own time line, because the you in that time line disappeared forever and that time line remains unchanged despise whatever you did in the past.

Point is, we don't know, even if there are theories about it. Don't argue realism about something we don't know. As I will call bullshit on you.




Meanwhile, the game must be fun to play. I wanna try it out if/when it's released.
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Zai

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2009, 04:44:39 pm »

I'm hoping this game will actually work, be able to play effectively, and most importantly, be fun to play.
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Virex

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2009, 04:59:41 pm »

I hardly knew of quantum physics when I created my Multiworlds. My view back then was that every time a decision is made, a number of parallel worlds spring up, each containing a possible choice the chooser could have taken. The chooser follows the path he chose, whereas all other worlds have copies of him, absolutely identical except for the originality of the consciousness.

Right now, I keep the Multiworlds only because they're too good to abandon. As I look into physics, I keep coming to the conclusion that the future IS set. They aren't universal laws if they allow wiggle room for the universe. You can never prove that in any given case, a particle or a waveform could have reacted differently. There may be factors we are not aware of. The human brain is no exception - it is merely a machine, an exceedingly complex one no doubt, but following its own laws. Without the benefit of being able to see the nature of the universe plainly, there is no way to say that in exactly the same circumstances, a human being would have come to a different decision. And yet I now believe that it is so.

It may be hard to wrap your head around the concept, but think about it. The human brain functions as it does because it constantly interfaces with all of its senses and memory, and they have an immediate effect on any process in the brain. Any decision you make is a series of signals passing through your neurons and synapses, that act more or less exactly like complex units of machine logic. If the state of this machine, however complex, is absolutely identical in all instances you check, the results of all logic paths will be exactly the same. If the decision is made a microsecond later than it would be, the state of the machine is changed and with the overwhelming complexity of logic in the human brain, the decision may be completely different. If the whole universe around us obeys the physical laws unerringly (even considering that we may not know the exact laws yet), and we ourselves cannot go against this biomachine logic, then what can change the future?

Bear in mind though, you do not have to believe anything I say. I simply state my opinion, and you are free to have your own. Indeed you must have your own, even if only slightly different - because your brain structure and experience are no doubt different from mine.

tl;dr: Since everything obeys the universal laws we may not even know yet, no action we take has not been foreseeable from the get-go.

Wow, this has gone ever so slightly off topic. :) Shall we start making another railroad tunnel?

Well, the problem with assuming that the future is set is that you have to assume that quantum mechanics is wrong. Which is of course possible, but it works to frigging well to be even partial false. We can exactly describe the chance of a particle to be in a certain area, or the chance that a certain event will happen with a mathematical function (give or take some approximations that are necessary to actualy calculate the value of said function), that has no unexplainable variables, as far as I know.
The system seems to have no unexplainable variables except for some constants that apear to be set by nature. These constants could possible be explained by string theory or an extended theory of quantum mechanics, like quantum gravity.
However, none of these theories, nor any experimental data suggest that there is an underlying pattern in the randomness that defines the world at it's smallest scale. It is for all purposes a random, but tightly defined system, and if we view it like that everything is consistent, but if we try to impose deterministic rules upon it everything breaks down.. So you'll understand it if I say that I am critical about anyone claiming that there has to be an underlying principle. Because that idea just doesn't fit with anything we currently know, nor does it fit with any experimental data found thusfar.
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¿

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2009, 05:10:43 pm »

Needlessly confusing.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2009, 05:50:17 pm »

Well yeah, by rationality and observation we can always predict a certain chance of something happening in some way. For example, the coin you flip seems random to you - and indeed, with enough coin-flips you'll usually see something close to an ideal statistical spread of heads and tails, which is usually assumed to be a sign of good randomness. But really, is the coin flip random? The moment your muscles have finished having an effect on the coin, it will follow a predetermined path, obeying the laws of physics. To the average person, those laws mean nothing and the flip is random. To the educated quantum physicist, there are no underlying principles and the quantum behavior is random. To the universe, I suspect it's just another law in effect.
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

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Darkone

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2009, 07:28:55 pm »

Speaking of Many Worlds interprutation, I remember a book I read recently that actually used it for FTL travel called Old Man's War.  I forgot how the soldier tried to explain it outside of "well, it works", but it was something along the lines of shifting the ship to a different universe where it actually existed exactly in the place they wanted to go. It relied on there being so many universes that any diferences would be minute things such as the position of an electron on a hydrogen atom in deep space in XXXXX galaxy. I thought it was a pretty great bit of author innovation there :P
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Virex

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 09:00:37 am »

Well yeah, by rationality and observation we can always predict a certain chance of something happening in some way. For example, the coin you flip seems random to you - and indeed, with enough coin-flips you'll usually see something close to an ideal statistical spread of heads and tails, which is usually assumed to be a sign of good randomness. But really, is the coin flip random? The moment your muscles have finished having an effect on the coin, it will follow a predetermined path, obeying the laws of physics. To the average person, those laws mean nothing and the flip is random. To the educated quantum physicist, there are no underlying principles and the quantum behavior is random. To the universe, I suspect it's just another law in effect.

How do you know that a coin flip isn't random? We do know it, because we can do elaborate tests that create a certain bias in the flip and by extrapolating that we can come to the conclusion that a coin flip is determined by a set amount of parameters that normally vary so much as to create a random effect.
But that only works with things like coin flips and die rolls. Other simulations can be done in some cases. But in many other cases, the idea that it is predetermined is just an assumption. Take for example the weather. You would expect that it's predetermined, but how can you tell? Nobody knows all parameters that influence the weather and nobody can prove conclusively that not one of those parameters is truly random.
Let's put things in a slightly larger scope. If we look at the movement of planets, we cans afely say that they are completely determined. One could draw the conclusion that this is because the physics behind it is fully determined. But there are zillions upon sillions of interactions working upon such a planet all the time, stemming from gravity, particles that hit it, space dust, radiation pressure et cetera. All of thses things can slightly influence the planet. Now there are 2 possibilities: these are fully determined, in which case they would have a calculatable effect upon the planet when measured over a very long period of time. But it is also possible that they are fully random, in which case the shear amount of interactions would cause a certain average, which in turn would look like a determined effect to us. You can't tell the difference.
Unless you start looking at single interactions on the smallest scale possible. As far as we currently know, the smallest scale is that of quantummechanics. At this scale interactions are seperated enough to be quantified individualy. And if we do that, we see (or actualy measure) a random distribution. Now there are several explenations possible: Either there is even a smaller level of interaction, or we have arived at the smalest possible scale, and things on that scale are truley random. I won't deny that the first option is possible. But since our current understanding calls for moddels build upon the second assumption, the first one is, in my oppinion, little more then a believe. To reiterate what I have already said, there is no reason to assume that god doesn't role dice, other then our own idea that things should be perfectly determined.
I don't want to say that it is completely impossible, but quantum mechanics is pretty much self-contained, and any currently vaiable theories for explaining the schism between quantum mechanics and general relativity do not do away with the basic concept of random distributions of wave functions. To me this means that any claim that the universe is fundamentaly determined calls for a bit more then just gut feeling and coin analogies ;)
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Neonivek

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 09:41:35 am »

This game is very interesting.

Though I am a bit concerned it may be overly complex and impossible to follow.

"Ohh I died? When did that happen? Ohh the computer went to the past and future and created a space time bridge thus creating a ripple effect eliminating the BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I give up!"
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Virex

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 09:45:56 am »

Well, if you watch the video's you can see that there's a clear indication of whatever yuor opponent is doing in the past. So he could attack you in the past, but then you'd know it and could counteract it. Of course the problem comes when you're out of chrono energy...
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Neonivek

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2009, 09:48:36 am »

Well, if you watch the video's you can see that there's a clear indication of whatever yuor opponent is doing in the past. So he could attack you in the past, but then you'd know it and could counteract it. Of course the problem comes when you're out of chrono energy...

No you only know he is manipulating the past. He could be doing ANYTHING!

If it didn't tell you anything... well the game would be flat out impossible.

Ps. I did watch the videos before making my first post.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:53:18 am by Neonivek »
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Puck

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 09:51:35 am »

I only have two things to add to this thread at this point, and I do feel slightly sorry for the stupidity, but it won't stop me:

88 miles per hour and a DeLorean.

Thanks. That is all.

Virex

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Re: Achron. First MTS.
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 09:55:42 am »

Well, if you watch the video's you can see that there's a clear indication of whatever yuor opponent is doing in the past. So he could attack you in the past, but then you'd know it and could counteract it. Of course the problem comes when you're out of chrono energy...

No you only know he is manipulating the past. He could be doing ANYTHING!

If it didn't tell you anything... well the game would be flat out impossible.

Ps. I did watch the videos before making my first post.

Someone's complaining about impossiblities in a forum dedicated to dwarf fortress?
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