Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

Yeah but your traveling for days, an Umbrella for the Sun would be good.

Remember Umbrellas were just as much for the Sun (if not more so) then the rain.

[Stray Elvis (Tame)]

Ehh, they'd have wide brimmed hats, and whether they're hiking or driving a pack animal they wouldn't be able to spare a hand for big clunky and angular thingamajigs.

[Neonivek]

Ehh, they'd have wide brimmed hats, and whether they're hiking or driving a pack animal they wouldn't be able to spare a hand for big clunky and angular thingamajigs.

How Gouche. Or do I mean Garrish?

[LegoLord]

Still think it's hardly something a medieval man (or dwarf or especially--goblin), grimy, unwashed and long adapted to the smell of his own sweat and feces, would do.

Dwarf Fortress is an incomplete game.  Just because dwarves don't wash now doesn't mean that's the way Toady wants the game to be.  In fact, if you have been keeping up with things, you would know that in version 41a Dwarves will no longer be as you just described, Elvis.  They are actually going to use soap.

I now put this forward, since you clearly did not read it the first nor second time it came up on this thread:
some poor, common counterarguments
You need to work on # 2 and 3.

Denial of umbrellas just because you don't think they fit dwarves as they are now is a very poor reason not to have them.

[Neonivek]

I am a bit more warmed up to the idea of Dwarves having access to Umbrellas then when I made my first post.

Though it is more that Dwarf Merchants and travelers would find it highly useful especially since Dwarves can realistically live their entire lifes underground. Highly useful for the sun.

It could exist but by far I wouldn't see it being rather popular. Though who says that should mean it shouldn't exist?

Though on this subject even the Umbrella and Parasol have something... limiting... Then again Shrouds, Windowless Carrages, and others could also be helpful.

On a side note: WOW I am being quoted a lot... *blinks*

[LegoLord]

It could exist but by far I wouldn't see it being rather popular. Though who says that should mean it shouldn't exist?

Exactly!
In the real world, nuclear power isn't popular, but is very widespread and proves to be less harmful than coal plants (so long as they meet standards).

Umbrellas aren't nuclear power plants, but the same principle applies.  They aren't even that popular in the real world, actually.

[Stray Elvis (Tame)]

Still think it's hardly something a medieval man (or dwarf or especially--goblin), grimy, unwashed and long adapted to the smell of his own sweat and feces, would do.

Dwarf Fortress is an incomplete game.  Just because dwarves don't wash now doesn't mean that's the way Toady wants the game to be.  In fact, if you have been keeping up with things, you would know that in version 41a Dwarves will no longer be as you just described, Elvis.  They are actually going to use soap.

I now put this forward, since you clearly did not read it the first nor second time it came up on this thread:
some poor, common counterarguments
You need to work on # 2 and 3.

Denial of umbrellas just because you don't think they fit dwarves as they are now is a very poor reason not to have them.

I am denying umbrellas because they do not fit my idea of dwarves and medieval civilization, period, not just the current game. The "unwashed" comment was not about the current game as much as it was about western medieval society in general. Everyone was dirty as hell.
I hate to bring a different world into this, but for the sake of visualization, could you imagine watching say LOTR, in the middle of which it starts raining and everyone pulls out their umbrellas?
I'll stand by this statement--to me, umbrellas as a practical item in this game are laughably nonsensical. That's my only argument here, that they're stupid and unnecessary chaff in a game with enough clutter as it is. Can you give me a reason a sensible person needing to do all kinds of hauling, construction, battle etc would pick an umbrella over a cloak?

[profit]

Still think it's hardly something a medieval man (or dwarf or especially--goblin), grimy, unwashed and long adapted to the smell of his own sweat and feces, would do.

Dwarf Fortress is an incomplete game.  Just because dwarves don't wash now doesn't mean that's the way Toady wants the game to be.  In fact, if you have been keeping up with things, you would know that in version 41a Dwarves will no longer be as you just described, Elvis.  They are actually going to use soap.

I now put this forward, since you clearly did not read it the first nor second time it came up on this thread:
some poor, common counterarguments
You need to work on # 2 and 3.

Denial of umbrellas just because you don't think they fit dwarves as they are now is a very poor reason not to have them.

I am denying umbrellas because they do not fit my idea of dwarves and medieval civilization, period, not just the current game. The "unwashed" comment was not about the current game as much as it was about western medieval society in general. Everyone was dirty as hell.
I hate to bring a different world into this, but for the sake of visualization, could you imagine watching say LOTR, in the middle of which it starts raining and everyone pulls out their umbrellas?
I'll stand by this statement--to me, umbrellas as a practical item in this game are laughably nonsensical. That's my only argument here, that they're stupid and unnecessary chaff in a game with enough clutter as it is. Can you give me a reason a sensible person needing to do all kinds of hauling, construction, battle etc would pick an umbrella over a cloak?

Dwarfs may never use or make an umbrella.. but many people play as humans through mods. 

So.. the idea that there could be umbrella's in the game has merit. 

Your disagreement is invalid because it was specifically stated that umbrella's would be added for the other races.  And humans DID use umbrella like things during the dwarf fortress time period well into the BC' time period.  Just because they do not show umbrella's over outside work area's in Lord of the rings, does not mean it did not exist.


I personally don't care either way  as I agree that umbrella's are fluf, but your logic on why they should not be added is faulty.

[Stray Elvis (Tame)]

Argh ok, fine. The people have spoken, and they want their bloody umbrellas. But don't be telling me my disagreement is "invalid" when I'm simply offering my opinion, same as anyone else, that umbrellas are a nonsensical addition to the game, when used by dwarves or humans or whomever else. You're the one reading some faulty logic into an example that was only meant to offer a mental picture. With the LOTR thing, I was not saying what you think I was saying.

[Neonivek]

The problem Elvis is that umbrellas were already established as a real part of the European life. So saying that they are not medieval gives people the impression that you are using the Modern Medieval Style.

At least that is why I am against your oppinion (Not against having it).

Mind you that this game wasn't made to follow history to the letter, so Umbrellas may not make the cut. (though I don't think they are noticable or unnoticable enough to exclude)

[LegoLord]

Argh ok, fine. The people have spoken, and they want their bloody umbrellas. But don't be telling me my disagreement is "invalid" when I'm simply offering my opinion, same as anyone else, that umbrellas are a nonsensical addition to the game, when used by dwarves or humans or whomever else. You're the one reading some faulty logic into an example that was only meant to offer a mental picture. With the LOTR thing, I was not saying what you think I was saying.

Let's be frank, you were saying that dwarves shouldn't have umbrellas because they don't fit your personal mental image of dwarves, despite plenty of evidence given so far that your image does not actually reflect what medieval life was really like, despite the fact that spending time underground a lot would probably make you more inclined to use an umbrella if you had to go out in the rain, despite the fact that you wouldn't have to use them, and despite the fact that people want it.  Quadruple whammy.  You needn't be so aggressive about it.

You shouldn't get so aggressive, especially if; a) plenty of people agree with the viewpoint opposing yours, b) they are actually taking your arguments into consideration and providing real counterarguments (rather than just striking down your opinion because it does not agree with you).

[TettyNullus]

Can't personally see anyone using umbrellas, seems rather clusmy, but a raincoat would be excellent. Someone mentioned about a raw tag to block rain, maybe sun also, I suppose? I wouldn't complain if it was included, since it do seems logical for someone to get the idea to put something that blocks sun and rain on a pole. (And end up calling it the portable tent or some such  ) I like the idea of being able to order sets of armour rather than the invidual pieces, that'd streamlish the production orders, even if only managment-side.

As to all those that complains that umbrellas don't belongs in the game, give up, just call it portable tent on spear or something. The idea behind it is perfectly valid, even if the object was never too common! (And you can always blame the damned nobles for coming up with the idea)

[Stray Elvis (Tame)]

Argh ok, fine. The people have spoken, and they want their bloody umbrellas. But don't be telling me my disagreement is "invalid" when I'm simply offering my opinion, same as anyone else, that umbrellas are a nonsensical addition to the game, when used by dwarves or humans or whomever else. You're the one reading some faulty logic into an example that was only meant to offer a mental picture. With the LOTR thing, I was not saying what you think I was saying.

Let's be frank, you were saying that dwarves shouldn't have umbrellas because they don't fit your personal mental image of dwarves, despite plenty of evidence given so far that your image does not actually reflect what medieval life was really like, despite the fact that spending time underground a lot would probably make you more inclined to use an umbrella if you had to go out in the rain, despite the fact that you wouldn't have to use them, and despite the fact that people want it.  Quadruple whammy.  You needn't be so aggressive about it.

You shouldn't get so aggressive, especially if; a) plenty of people agree with the viewpoint opposing yours, b) they are actually taking your arguments into consideration and providing real counterarguments (rather than just striking down your opinion because it does not agree with you).

I realize in hindsight I got a little more worked up than appropriate for a suggestions forum, I do apologize. That said, there hasn't been much in the way of evidence for widespread use of umbrellas in medieval society. That it existed, yes, but how many laborers and adventurers actually used it? I see it as being something nobles use, maybe, but some guys roughing it out in the wilderness, not a chance. One hand is always tied up when you use an umbrella, something we can afford in modern society, but not quite so for a dwarf stepping out to haul some wood back to the base. A cloak would serve the same purpose without any of the disadvantages.
I'll try to keep an open mind about suggestions in the future.

[profit]

I agree as well that anyone doing actual work would not be able to use an umbrella and a raincoat/cloak would be more appropriate.  Nobles and women who are just out and about would be likely suspects to use one.

LOL don't worry about getting worked up... I tend to do the same thing when I see suggestions that are likely to cause significantly more processor usage (and hence slow the game down even more).  I do not feel anyone takes it personally. We are just passionate about our ideas.

[Urist McDetective]

When talking about surly, drunken midgets that are almost as wide as they are tall, I could well imagine them wearing wide-brimmed hats.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Possibly even a wok. maybe I've spent too long in China?

Elves or humans seem more suited to umbrellas, straw thatch items or broad-leafed raincoats / hats / other.
Chinese raincoat link.