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[Shoruke]

Your points are respectable, but I personally see a fatal flaw in them:

"Humans have free will."

In relation to theism, this is in direct contrast to "god created us". If god created us, he made us precisely as we are. It's not like god threw a 1d6 to determine whether we would eat that apple or not. He knew exactly what we were going to do, and being omniscient (notice I use that a lot?), he knew precisely how he would make us. In fact, since he knows EVERYTHING, he even knew how long it would be before he would make us, and he decided a long time before that, precisely what the history of earth and humans would be. God knew an infinite sequence of time ago, precisely what his own actions would be.

And therefore that he would make humans...
And HOW he would make them...
And how we would act once we ate the apple...
And that he had an infinite sequence, or larger (he's god, he can totally pass inifinity), of other things he could do to influence our universe in such a way as to not make us kill and destroy and inflict pain as we do today.

He would also realize that, by not revealing himself to us for the past 4000~ish years, he's caused a LOT of stress and confusion, and I think he's a jerk for that. If he exists, which I doubt.

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Yeah, unlike the Christians, we does not believe that the fruit is SIGNIFICANT in shaping free will.
Humans have free will since the first time they are created (from clays (I think)) and they also have knowledge, given to them by God, so they will be higher than angels (which was created from God's lights(Their arabic name means messenger)) and Djinns (which are created from smokeless fire, their name means 'invinsible').

There are some remarks by the angels that hints on the possibility of a sapient species before man, that destroyed Earth (Earth has existed already, and unlike the Christians, again, we believe that the '7 days' is just a metaphor, and that each days IS NOT equivalent to earth days. It may be Universe or Omniverse days, that is 1/355 of Uni/Omniverse years. (Please note that Jews (I think) and Arabs used moon years.))

The Devil is a djinn, that was hold highly by God, so he joint the angels in 'serving' (the term is 'ibadah', but I'm not sure what the translation is) God. Anyway, he refuses to prostrate (sujud) to Adam when God told him to. For this, he was banished from Heaven. Before so, he asked to God for immortality, until the end of times, to seek revenge on Adam's childrens. God granted his wish.

Satans are Devil (Iblis) childrens. Iblis is a djinn, so of course he can reproduce.

...
I'll continue when I have time. I'm very tired.

@Shoruke: How about the Many-worlds interpration? Since there are infinite worlds, that means that there are the few that's like us, a not too good and not too evil world.

Argh, my head's spinning.

[Shoruke]

Good try. But you still haven't said how my model of no free will doesn't work.

Simply saying "we have free will" is great, except when you're trying to point out where that free will came from. I'll run over this again, and I'll try to be brief.

-God created us exactly as we are
-because god is so totally haxor, he knew precisely what we would and will do.
-therefore, relative to god, we have no free will, because he knows what we are going to do. Not only that, we do it because he set it up so that we would do it.

[Electronic Phantom]

Um, wow.  Four pages in one day.  Can I say 'hot topic'?

@shoruke: Um.  'Didn't reveal himself?'  How would you know he 'hasn't revealed himself?'  I seem to recall this one guy that seemed fairly important.  He set the world on its ear about 2000 years ago.  He made some pretty extraordinary claims, including the claim to be God.

And what if he did come back and give that little synopsis that you asked for.  Think about it.  Given enough generations, and we'd be exactly where we are today.  I contend that he did come back.  You just didn't like what he had to say, or even who he was, and therefore disregarded those statements.

In addition, I think it's pretty plain from the text that something threw a wrench into his perfect creation.  Yah, yah.  He could see it coming from a mile off.  Heck, he even knew it was coming before he created everything.

In reinforcement to Gorjo: "Why do bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, if God is all loving?"

I believe the proper verse is: "The rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous."  Or, in modern terms: Shit happens.

I think that complaining about how life sucks so badly only makes life suck worse.  It's kinda like picking at a scab.  If ya pick at it enough, it eventually gets infected.

Also, @ Gorjo: Last paragraph, mostly the last few sentances: what?

@Yanlin: According to Christian theology, God was not created.  In addition, it also states in the Bible that mans years were to limited to 120 years.  I'm not at all surprised that it is fairly difficult to reach 100.

And that 'numbering error' is probably in reference to the misspelling of a word in reference to the circumphrence of the sea in, probably, Dueteronomy.

@Servant Corps: Go back and read Genesis again: Adam named the animals, or gave them 'human names' anyway.  Again, my apologies to Servant Corps

@IWM: Um.  I wasn't aware that Christians believed that the fruit was significant in shaping free will either.

Would somebody please explain to me how God is being a hypocrite?  Also, how is it God's fault if we are responsible for screwing over his perfect creation?

Okay.  That's probably enough for one post.  I'm not writing a thesis paper on the topic.

-(e)EP

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Your points are respectable, but I personally see a fatal flaw in them:

"Humans have free will."

In relation to theism, this is in direct contrast to "god created us". If god created us, he made us precisely as we are. It's not like god threw a 1d6 to determine whether we would eat that apple or not. He knew exactly what we were going to do, and being omniscient (notice I use that a lot?), he knew precisely how he would make us. In fact, since he knows EVERYTHING, he even knew how long it would be before he would make us, and he decided a long time before that, precisely what the history of earth and humans would be. God knew an infinite sequence of time ago, precisely what his own actions would be.

And therefore that he would make humans...
And HOW he would make them...
And how we would act once we ate the apple...
And that he had an infinite sequence, or larger (he's god, he can totally pass inifinity), of other things he could do to influence our universe in such a way as to not make us kill and destroy and inflict pain as we do today.

He would also realize that, by not revealing himself to us for the past 4000~ish years, he's caused a LOT of stress and confusion, and I think he's a jerk for that. If he exists, which I doubt.

In a nutshell, what it seems you are saying, is, If God exists, then its all Gods fault.  It would stand to reason then, that its also our parents fault.

Having free will and being created are not mutually exclusive.  When I role a d6, i KNOW every possible outcome, but I do NOT know which outcome it will be until the event happens.  God knows that:  if person A makes decision A then X will happen but if person A makes Decision B then Y will happen.  He knows how the outcomes will come to pass, just not which one we will choose.  There is no singular pre-ordained path (imho - cuz thats a whole other box of rocks in theology that I disagree with), but intstead many with inifinite outcomes, all of which God knows ahead of time, while he waits to see what we choose.  This may seem to go against the idea of Prophecy in religion, but not really, God has no trouble getting directly involved if necessary to affect the outcome.  Those are those times when he is trying to get our attention, saying, "Hey.  Stupids!  Yeah, I mean you down there!  Get with the program!"  From the Christian standpoint, He quit doing that since He sent His Son with a direct message.

Also, God tries to reveal Himself to us every day all day, we just arent listening.  Usually our own self-indulged towering intellect gets in the way - read as ego.

Yeah, unlike the Christians, we does not believe that the fruit is SIGNIFICANT in shaping free will.
Humans have free will since the first time they are created (from clays (I think)) and they also have knowledge, given to them by God, so they will be higher than angels (which was created from God's lights(Their arabic name means messenger)) and Djinns (which are created from smokeless fire, their name means 'invinsible').

There are some remarks by the angels that hints on the possibility of a sapient species before man, that destroyed Earth (Earth has existed already, and unlike the Christians, again, we believe that the '7 days' is just a metaphor, and that each days IS NOT equivalent to earth days. It may be Universe or Omniverse days, that is 1/355 of Uni/Omniverse years. (Please note that Jews (I think) and Arabs used moon years.))

The Devil is a djinn, that was hold highly by God, so he joint the angels in 'serving' (the term is 'ibadah', but I'm not sure what the translation is) God. Anyway, he refuses to prostrate (sujud) to Adam when God told him to. For this, he was banished from Heaven. Before so, he asked to God for immortality, until the end of times, to seek revenge on Adam's childrens. God granted his wish.

Satans are Devil (Iblis) childrens. Iblis is a djinn, so of course he can reproduce.

...
I'll continue when I have time. I'm very tired.

@Shoruke: How about the Many-worlds interpration? Since there are infinite worlds, that means that there are the few that's like us, a not too good and not too evil world.

Argh, my head's spinning.

IWM:  Any Christian that thinks the fruit gave them free will hasnt read their own Bible.  Also, many many Christians ascribe themselves to the theory of 7 days as a metaphor.  The islamic story of the Devil is one I am not familiar with, but I find what you said interesting, as it seems to have invaded western pop culture as well.



I have a question for anyone who wants to ponder it here:
what about the OTHER TREE in the garden and its place in Genesis and the fall of man?
(hint:  the tree of eternal life that God removed so we couldn't get to it after eating fruit from the first tree)

I have another question for those of Hebrew faith:
Is Jesus the third blood sacrament?  This question was once brought to my attention, and I gotta admit, i was intrigued by it.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

...
Also, @ Gorjo: Last paragraph, mostly the last few sentances: what?

And that 'numbering error' is probably in reference to the misspelling of a word in reference to the circumphrence of the sea in, probably, Dueteronomy....
.
[/quote]

yeah, i think I was thinking a little more abstractly than I was typing, or maybe vice-versa 

there is a numbering error concerning battles with the Philistines (not Palestinians -erk).  In 1st & 2nd Kings is says they numbered 14400 during a battle, and in 1st and 2nd Chronicles (which are nothing more that historical synopsis') it says 144,000.

[Shoruke]

Alright. Two thousand years then. And that's if you believe Jesus and the bible are telling the truth, which I think I've made plain that I don't.

AND, you completely missed the point there. The point is, that god would save us a LOT of negative emotion if he just showed up every, I don't know, five years or so. It wouldn't be hard for him, he made the whole planet, not to mention us. Any benevolent god, which I think most religions claim to have (I won't make that statement definite without having read any religious texts), would realize that he could save humans a bunch of stress if he (, she, it) just showed up once in a while.

Actually, it would help a whole lot: maybe we wouldn't have such a problem with global warming if the big oil companies had their butts smote a bit. But no, whatever omnipotent being we have insist on being enigmatic at the expense of practicality.

In a nutshell, what it seems you are saying, is, If God exists, then its all Gods fault.  It would stand to reason then, that its also our parents fault.

Having free will and being created are not mutually exclusive.  When I role a d6, i KNOW every possible outcome, but I do NOT know which outcome it will be until the event happens.  God knows that:  if person A makes decision A then X will happen but if person A makes Decision B then Y will happen.  He knows how the outcomes will come to pass, just not which one we will choose.  There is no singular pre-ordained path (imho - cuz thats a whole other box of rocks in theology that I disagree with), but intstead many with inifinite outcomes, all of which God knows ahead of time, while he waits to see what we choose.

Problem: God is omniscient. Omni meaning everything. EVERY. SINGLE. THING.
There is not a single fact in the universe which god is not aware of. He knows, to the nearest infinity-eth of the diameter of a nothingth of a quark, the makeup of your brain and how it works. He knows how electrons flow, and how everything is affected by gravity. He knew several thousand years ago, that today you would post on a forum trying to prove that he exists.

Hence, no free will, because he saw it coming. Because he knows everything.

If this isn't clear yet, do some thinking about the definitions of everything and omnipotent.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Problem: God is omniscient. Omni meaning everything. EVERY. SINGLE. THING.
There is not a single fact in the universe which god is not aware of. He knows, to the nearest infinity-eth of the diameter of a nothingth of a quark, the makeup of your brain and how it works. He knows how electrons flow, and how everything is affected by gravity. He knew several thousand years ago, that today you would post on a forum trying to prove that he exists.

Hence, no free will, because he saw it coming. Because he knows everything.

If this isn't clear yet, do some thinking about the definitions of everything and omnipotent.

well, lets just run with this.  God is omniscient.  God is ultimately onmiscient.  God is so freakin omniscient that what you/I think you/I know about omnisciense (sp?) is not what omnisciense is, cuz you/I cant know what it is, cuz you/I aint omniscient.  Its fine and dandy to make a logic circle for your/mine own understanding, but if God Is ( and I think He Is ), then He is also Omnipotent ( ALL freakin POWERFUL ).  That means He craps on human logic circles about the definition of something they neither have nor understand, ie omnisciense (I am gonna go look up the spelling of that in a sec dammit).

If this isnt clear yet, do some thinking about human limitations.


but this might be too sarcastic and therefore lost on you..........   

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Yeah.

I don't know, maybe He's playing games with himself. with us, humans, as pawns.

I REALLY don't know.

Also, isn't paradox caused by human minds' limitation?

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Yeah.

I don't know, maybe He's playing games with himself. with us, humans, as pawns.

I REALLY don't know.

Also, isn't paradox caused by human minds' limitation?

agree completely

[Jude]

Free will is a ridiculous concept for so many reasons - philosophical, biological, physical scientific, psychological....

[Shoruke]

...I need to get this straight. God is omnipotent and omniscient (easy spelling BTW, omni + science or scient), and so humans have no logic?

You're missing a step here, or something.

[Servant Corps]

@Servant Corps: Go back and read Genesis again: Adam named the animals, or gave them 'human names' anyway.

And, according to my religion, it was God that taught Man the names. Look, I haven't read Genesis at all, I'm not a Chrisistan. Gah.

-God created us exactly as we are
-because god is so totally haxor, he knew precisely what we would and will do.
-therefore, relative to god, we have no free will, because he knows what we are going to do. Not only that, we do it because he set it up so that we would do it.

The third clause does not follow. God know what you are going to do, but that does not restrict your Free Will to choose. God just know what you will choose. Further, just because God made you who you are does not mean that God actually intentionally "set [anything] up". God may have decided to create the first men, and watched from the sidelines as mankind reproduce and does what it so desire, while knowing what mankind will do in the far off future.

But I don't believe in the concept of Free Will that much, rather believing instead in predestination, so...meh.

[Electronic Phantom]

Heh.  Two posts, and goin' hot.

First of all:  There is a big difference between God, who knows everything, and everyone here, who is limited to their respective (and diverse) perceptions.  Maybe this is all big one play and we're just playin' our parts in a monstrous (as in size, not in quality) script.  To the individual, this appears to be free-will.  Heck, in order to get away from this perception, you have to leave the space-time we currently occupy.  The point is, even if we are predestined to do certain things, we still have the perception of free-will.  We have choices.

@Shoruke: I don't think anybody here is arguing with you on the omniscient part.  In addition, why is it God's responsibility to fix our problems (since we, ourselves, are responsible for where we are at)?  Why is it so hard to believe, now, that he came 2000 years ago?

I'll accept the fact that you don't believe that Jesus and the Bible are telling the truth.  There are a couple of things I'd like to point out though:

1. Yeah, God is enigmatic, but the problem is on our side rather than his: i.e. incomplete information.  It's not really his problem if we don't understand him.  As a matter of fact, he even states that we will not understand him.  If you're looking for understanding before faith, you're drawing water from a dry well.

"The point is, that god would save us a LOT of negative emotion if..."

2. ...is not necessarily true.  There is still the problem of faith, and of the principle of 'bad things happen to both good and bad people.'  So God shows up every five years.  You're still gonna feel horrible if your wife is raped and then murdered, your kids run away, the government hounds you at every corner, your friends rub salt in your wounds (metaphorically), and to top it all off, you've got a raging cold, a high fever, and a runny nose.  You're still gonna feel bad if, despite these glorious appearances and the feverish faith running rampant through the cities of this world, you still don't believe in God for whatever reason.  You're still gonna feel bad if you belong to a differant belief group.  You're still gonna feel bad if your land and possessions are taken away (against your own will), by God's ordinance, and given to somebody else.

[tl;dr]: Even if God does come back as you suggest, it's not going to cure the 'negetive emotion running amok.'  Humanity will simply find something else to complain about (probably focussing its ire on God himself).

3. The debate for Global Warming is not over.  Especially Man-Made Global Warming (debate in another thread please).  Pick other examples (such as nuclear annihilation of the entire planet) that are less politically hot please.

4. God is not gonna stop us from shooting ourselves (collectively and individually) in the foot('global warming,' per your example), especially if A) We don't believe in him and B) We don't want to have anything to do with him.  Furthermore, he's not going to unless we ask him.  And for that to happen, you have to believe in him.  Yes, he is a benevolent and loving God, but I believe that the proper description of the relationship between him and humanity is: "a lover(God) scorned."  AND THAT IS NOT TO IMPLY IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT HUMANITY AND GOD ARE LOVERS... in the physical sense, that is.

I may have to edit that last paragraph given further thought.

@IWM: I dunno 'bout you, but all the history I have read does not point to a God that 'plays' with his creation.  But then again, maybe you're being facetious.

@Jude: Heh.  I believe that to be an unsupported statement.

@Gorjo: "yeah, i think I was thinking a little more abstractly than I was typing, or maybe vice-versa."

I understand completely.

Umm.  I'm going to contend with you on this point: "He quit doing that..."  God is as involved today as he was 2000 years ago, maybe more so.  And, indeed, God has no trouble getting directly involved.

@Servant Corps: My apologies, then.  I did not intend to step on your nerves.  I'll go back and edit that last post.

And..... I think that's it for this post.

-(e)EP

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

@Gorjo: "yeah, i think I was thinking a little more abstractly than I was typing, or maybe vice-versa."

I understand completely.

Umm.  I'm going to contend with you on this point: "He quit doing that..."  God is as involved today as he was 2000 years ago, maybe more so.  And, indeed, God has no trouble getting directly involved.

-(e)EP

what I meant by that is He is no longer directly affecting the world, by doing things like Sodom and Gomorrah, as an example.  He withdrew from such things and sent His Son.  At least, thats my opinion.
____________
Shoruke:  omniscient, yeah i know that spelling, its an adjective.  I meant the verb.  I think its omniscience, not omnisciense.  Anyway, what  I meant without sarcasm is that human logic can't actually grasp what omniscient and omnipotent beings are capable of, because, by definition, they are unlimited and therefore undefinable.  By saying someone is omniscient and therefore knows all therefore He MUST know all ever isn't taking into account that fact that such a being could easily decide to close his eyes.........and be surprised.  Thats the rub.  Can God be surprised?  His being Omnipotent and Omniscient both confirms and denies that statement.  Thats why human logic fails.

anyway, thats how I see it.
--------
I'm going to work now, like a good little protestant....