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[LegoLord]

Use your brain to process the words.

Sounds very insulting.

No, looking at it a few times, I can see you were not referring to genetics, but it's hard to tell.  You should consider that the fault could lie on you for not being clear.

[Lord Dullard]

Use your brain to process the words.

Sounds very insulting.

No, looking at it a few times, I can see you were not referring to genetics, but it's hard to tell.  You should consider that the fault could lie on you for not being clear.

Yes, I do tend to be unnecessarily sharp at times. IF the original person to whom I replied finds my statement insulting, my apologies.

OTOH, I don't really think anything that I first posted was unclear, so..

[SirHoneyBadger]

I'm certain a high percentage of the people on these Forums have been inside of caves or mines before, so I don't want this to sound in any way patronizing (or insulting, etc):

I've been in several caves myself, and had a friend who was a professional caver/writer on caving (he was a little, hairy, friendly (and crazy), bearded man who died from complications of alchoholism, so as close to a dwarf as I've ever personally known. His name was Hawkeye Hook. He was a good guy--a good friend to my dad, a good friend to me, and I wish he was still around. He could have brought a lot to the DF table.).

For those (few?) of you who haven't been inside of them before, cave environments *can* be extremely bizarre, and extremely dangerous, at times, and depending on the cave system.

Just being underground, like in a mine (I've been in coal mines before, we have lots of them in Pennsylvania) can still be weird, uncomfortable, and dangerous.

I'm the opposite of a claustrophobe-I'd rather be in a small, confined space, than a large one, infact I'm slightly agoraphobic-but there's a certain feeling of oppression, to being under a hundred feet or more of earth, that I think probably everyone feels-even a dwarf?-if you're not used to it, even if the place you're at isn't in any way particularly dangerous.

As far as the current situation in the game is concerned, it seems-to me, anyway-to resemble a vitamin deficiency, or maybe just good old hyperphotosensitivity.

There's something to be said for actually *adapting* to live in such an environment: Having the skills to move around safely, to find food and water, and to avoid dangers, knowing the environment well enough to adapt it to tactical combat-and knowing it well enough not to cause long-term harm to it, by your presence-and using all of your senses, but not relying on any one of them, to find your way around.

There's a lot to learn. Maybe even enough for a "caving" skill, someday?

So, in my opinion, cave adapatation should bring with it a movement bonus, a combat bonus, and a detection/perception bonus. That just makes sense to me.

Agility, I think, might go up a little faster, too, considering the terrain one sometimes has to travel over, and the methods for doing so.

I also think that some critters could/should come with more enhanced versions of "cave adaptation". With enhanced benefits, but also enhanced detrimental harm, if they venture outside.

To give you an example: Dwarfs might be at a 1, while GCSpiders might be at a 5? Cave trolls or mole men might fall between those two extremes?

[LegoLord]

Actually, terrain within a single cave can vary a surprising amount.  About as much as on the surface, really.  I don't think it'd have much effect.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Actually, terrain within a single cave can vary a surprising amount.  About as much as on the surface, really.  I don't think it'd have much effect.

The sheer variation itself would have an effect, I would think? Combined with the constants of darkness, the typical moisture (and mud), the echoing effects, and the typically constant temperature.

[Lord Dullard]

Actually, terrain within a single cave can vary a surprising amount.  About as much as on the surface, really.  I don't think it'd have much effect.

The sheer variation itself would have an effect, I would think? Combined with the constants of darkness, the typical moisture (and mud), the echoing effects, and the typically constant temperature.

Not to mention the stale, and sometimes mildly-to-lethally poisonous air, depending on depth and the quantities of whatever gases have had time to settle.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Actually, terrain within a single cave can vary a surprising amount.  About as much as on the surface, really.  I don't think it'd have much effect.

The sheer variation itself would have an effect, I would think? Combined with the constants of darkness, the typical moisture (and mud), the echoing effects, and the typically constant temperature.

Not to mention the stale, and sometimes mildly-to-lethally poisonous air, depending on depth and the quantities of whatever gases have had time to settle.

^^^^^ and dust--including the more dangerous kinds, like naturally occuring forms of asbestos, or coal dust, for instance.

That's another good point.

[RAM]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

a person who goes blind will almost certainly learn to better use their other senses.

Incorrect. they just pay more attention to their other senses. Losing one sense doesn't effect your genetics.

Please... just read what I said. Use your brain to process the words. It says nothing about INCREASING their senses or changing their genetics. In fact, you just reworded exactly what I said twice.

Stating that someone is wrong without taking the effort to check the content of their statements is somewhat rude and exceedingly frustrating.
You should consider that the fault could lie on you for not understanding...
Communication is a very complicated endeavour and, in a perfect world everyone would accept this and deal with it. This isn't such a world so we have to put up with a certain amount of insults and a certain level of reaction to those insults...
In context I would say that suggesting that someone use their brain is only mildly insulting and has the potential to be appropriate...

I don't see anything inherently good or bad about the word adaptation. If someone has some reference stating that cave adaptation is intended to be a purely bad thing, then that may have some applicability, but given that this is a suggestion it can suggest whatever it wants, the challenge is to make a good argument for it...
It seems to me that after spending a sufficiently long time underground to find the surface unsettling then they are likely to gain a sense for it. You will, for example, become familiar with the sounds, if a thief walks into the fortress with a cricket hiding on their backpack, chirping away, they may well fail to notice anything out of place, but every dwarf within earshot will be aware of it. Also they will come to know what it sounds like when someone is mining at the quarry and notice the difference when someone is chipping away at the wall of their house, and thee is a big difference to hearing someone digging through soft dirt when you are on the surface, and hearing someone dig through solid stone when you are in an underground room. Although most of this stuff happens pretty quickly, I would expect most aspects of cave adaptation to take place over the space of a couple of hours...

Realistically, people will adjust to whatever surroundings they are in quite quickly, and grow familiar and comfortable with them over time. I would like to see adaptation for all biomes, and also for civilised areas as opposed to wilderness. A contented villager is going to freak out if they suddenly find themselves alone in the haunted(by reputation) forest, even if their village is technically located within it, whereas a cavalry unit that had been out on a months-long patrol might feel out of place upon returning to the capital. Dwarves may feel uncomfortable going from smoothed areas to unsmoothed areas and a peasant may be overwhelmed the fist time they go to the nobles' quarters and find complex engravings covering every surface.

I also feel that familiar things should alleviate adaptation, if the ground is tiled in the same way as the floor of the fortress then it is one less thing to worry about, if there are a dozen familiar dwarves around you then you know you have support, and if they are wearing their scruffy old workclothes then they are likely to feel more comfortable than if they are wearing a brand new suit. Of course, that works both ways, if you have familiar tiles outside the fort then invaders will have a chance to become familiar with you floors in a more comfortable setting...

So...
Universal adaptation, based on biome and density of civilisation. Familiar surroundings reduce impact. Adapted individuals gain superior spatial and sensory awareness compared to others.

[Pilsu]

Personally I'd prefer if it only provided higher perception in the dark. The other stuff gets quasi magical. Mind you, any conferred darkvision shouldn't be binary. Any creature with the tag should see slightly better in the dark by default and said benefit would gradually increase as the tolerance for the outdoors decreases. No one should see jack without any light nearby but that's a matter for the lighting arc


If we ever get a night cycle that means something, cave adapted folk going outside probably shouldn't hurl when it's dark

[Neonivek]

cave adapted folk going outside probably shouldn't hurl when it's dark

True they are most likely sun sick

Though they can get ill from the change in pressure as well.

[RAM]

I still say that there is something unnatural about a sky that can't fall...

[Silverionmox]

Posted elsewhere, but more ad rem here:

Can't we just use the different probability for each race to get certain phobias at birth? That would mean that dwarves are much more likely to get agoraphobia. The founding dwarves still would like to be outdoors, otherwise they wouldn't go hiking across the land. Their descendants, however, are just as likely as - or slightly less than - the average dwarf to get agoraphobia as an inborn trait. That would mean they would avoid coming outside, and are practically stuck at their fortress, which they don't mind, since there's mining to do. Comfortable travel to other fortresses would only be possible with special wagons (for nobles, who have to) or tunnel.
Humans and especially elves strike me as the type to have claustrophobia often. They should get an extra penalty anyway, since they are effectively crawling in a tunnel that has the size of a dwarf (Humans really should mine (if) corridors  and build houses of two squares in height). Tactical considerations: elves would then normally stay where they can make use of bows, while having a real hard time to invade a dwarf fortress. Dwarves would need specially selected troops to attack overland, though making a short sortie should be withing the capability of almost any dwarven warrior - except legendary agoraphobiacs.

Advantages:
- cave adaptation does more than vomit
- we get rid of the Lamarckian evolution
- racial differences/flavour are stressed
- there's already a way to indicate the distribution of traits in the raws

Requirements:
- making phobias (or at least this one, for starters) have real impact on behaviour and decisions, not only a happiness bonus or minus.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I like the idea of humans mining 2 spaces (2 z-levels) for every 1 our dwarfs mine. That might have some application in balancing out tunnelling concerns, for instance.

It could also make Fortress design more interesting, since you could add "human-sized" areas, for political and trade reasons.

[zchris13]

The cave adaptation tag gives the dudes bonuses to their combat when underground, whether or not they are going to vomit when they see the sun.

Also, I can agree. Having 100+ feet of rock over your head makes it very hard to breathe.  Like being stepped on.  Definitely a scary feeling if you're not used to it.

[jockmo42]

Yes, it would seem some of my suggestions are a bit far-fetched. But isn't this game a bit far-fetched? Creatures that live in lava, giant spiders...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And let's not forget the pit of demons.

At the very least, if my dwarves function badly in the sun, they should function a bit better than average underground. Be it movement, combat, trippy rock-sense, or any kind of benefit to actually make it cave adaptation. Right now it's just sun aversion.

The cave adaptation tag gives the dudes bonuses to their combat when underground, whether or not they are going to vomit when they see the sun.

Is that true? It's a bit better, then, but could still be elaborated.