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[Derakon]

No, I'd say there's a difference between claustrophobia and knowing that it's impossible to leave where you live. I wouldn't feel claustrophobic if I lived in a village surrounded by unclimbable cliffs, but I'd still be pretty pissed that I couldn't reach the outside world.

[Sunday]

I agree that there needs to be some way of making sure that dwarves aren't completely cut off from the rest of the world - dwarves can drown, after all, which means (presumably) that they need to breathe, which means they shouldn't be able to wall themselves off underground.

This suggestion would be far less CPU intensive & far simpler than tracking air loss/flows, so I think it's a good idea.

In any case, I think the idea that more space equaling a smaller chance of going crazy isn't necessarily the only logical solution.  You're assuming that dwarven psychology matches human psychology closely (which isn't true in the case of DF dwarves - see dwarven reaction to socks, their happiness with dining rooms, &c. &c.) - perhaps it is the 'unable to leave' part that makes them go crazy rather than the 'enclosed space' part.  In other words, it doesn't matter how much space there is underground, if a dwarf can't leave the fortress and strike out for some distant outpost to start afresh, he goes berserk.

[bjlong]

While I don't see dwarves being stir-crazy, I do see them regretting not being able to trade, to show off their masterpieces, to send letters, and all the other things that come with being connected to the dwarven empire. Perhaps every time a caravan comes, but doesn't reach the Depot, dwarves get some negative thoughts.

Perhaps these thoughts would scale with time, so after a few decades of not being with the empire, the dwarves stop caring and start in-breeding.

Seiges would count doubly, I would think.

[Hyndis]

I agree that there needs to be some way of making sure that dwarves aren't completely cut off from the rest of the world - dwarves can drown, after all, which means (presumably) that they need to breathe, which means they shouldn't be able to wall themselves off underground.

This suggestion would be far less CPU intensive & far simpler than tracking air loss/flows, so I think it's a good idea.

In any case, I think the idea that more space equaling a smaller chance of going crazy isn't necessarily the only logical solution.  You're assuming that dwarven psychology matches human psychology closely (which isn't true in the case of DF dwarves - see dwarven reaction to socks, their happiness with dining rooms, &c. &c.) - perhaps it is the 'unable to leave' part that makes them go crazy rather than the 'enclosed space' part.  In other words, it doesn't matter how much space there is underground, if a dwarf can't leave the fortress and strike out for some distant outpost to start afresh, he goes berserk.

Yup. While tracking air would be an amazing addition, I'm just not sure the current engine can handle it, as air would probably be sort of like water in terms of how demanding the calculations are, and even a moderately sized water project can kill framerate. Imagine having that for the entire map!

My prefered solution to the siege thing would be to allow creatures to climb up and down cliffs, albeit very slowly. Thus, goblins could climb down airshafts into your fortress, and if you don't have any airshafts, pretty soon you won't have any dwarves either.

However keeping in mind the need to keep CPU cycles to a minimum, unhappy thoughts from being sealed off would accomplish roughly the same thing while not making your computer run at 1 FPS. However this would only work if the unhappy thoughts are serious enough that only a few will cause a dwarf to go insane, such that waiting out a siege which can last an entire year may not be feasable unless you have a legendary dining room, cook, brewer, and every dwarf has their own personal palace. And even then, your fortress should be very unhappy from being under siege for so long.

An alternative solution would be to have goblins telepathically cause unhappy thoughts to all dwarves on the map, but that would prohibit goblin zoos. For example, "Urist was worried lately about goblins in the area." With enough of those piling up, insanity. But I don't think thats quite as elegant as instead linking it to being able to reach the edge of the map.

Also, going insane by being unable to reach the edge of the map would allow the creation of dwarven arenas. Lock the hammerer up until he goes berserk, then drop cats into the arena with him. And so forth.

[Idiom]

Wow. No-one recognized the Twilight Zone reference?

My prefered solution to the siege thing would be to allow creatures to climb up and down cliffs, albeit very slowly. Thus, goblins could climb down airshafts into your fortress, and if you don't have any airshafts, pretty soon you won't have any dwarves either.

Ropes and picks. Rock climbing needs to be a skill.

tracking air would be an amazing addition

Shouldn't and couldn't this go in with the addition of poisons? Or should it go with the expansion of liquid types?

[AncientEnemy]

I don't think air ventilation would necessarily have to be calculated as a flow to be implemented satisfactorily. each tile could have a ventilation value that is measured by how far it is from the nearest 'outside' tile, with multiple outside tiles adding to the effect (larger air duct = more ventilation). this'd only need be calculated once when a tile is exposed to air to begin with, or when a new air shaft is dug.

[LegoLord]

Caves don't have to be small.  Dwarves get cave adaptation whether they're living in a gigantic cavern or a tiny cellar.  The common factor is darkness.  So yes, by all indications it could be called "darkness adaptation."

Actually, cave adaptation is caused by the presence of a roof.  In one of my forts, I have barracks under a constructed roof (marked as inside/light/above ground).  When they get out from under it (outside/light/above ground), they get sun-sick.

[Urist McDetective]

*oops?

[Urist McDetective]

Modelling air flow shouldn't be as difficult as water, if you consider that an area connected to a chasm / bottomless pit / sky should be exempt from calculations. That's almost everything.
Anything cut off completely would eventually run out of breathable air, dependant on the size / number of breathing creatures inside. One time calculation, unless the number of creatures changes or the area is opened to one of the three border tiles listed above.
'Cut off' would likely be limited to constructions, rock falls & magma or water flooding.
If every open underground tile is connected to one of the three, (or has no air) then there's no reason to calculate further.
RAW's could specify air levels for a creature to get dizzy / pass out / suffer damage & finally die. (/other?)
Mining out rock doesn't free breathable air, right? I'm guessing poisonous gases could work something like miasma; different gases provide differing levels of visibility & lethality. Miners' canaries come to mind.

[Silverionmox]

Caves don't have to be small.  Dwarves get cave adaptation whether they're living in a gigantic cavern or a tiny cellar.  The common factor is darkness.  So yes, by all indications it could be called "darkness adaptation."

Actually, cave adaptation is caused by the presence of a roof.  In one of my forts, I have barracks under a constructed roof (marked as inside/light/above ground).  When they get out from under it (outside/light/above ground), they get sun-sick.

Can't we just use the different probability for each race to get certain phobias at birth? That would mean that dwarves are much more likely to get agoraphobia. The founding dwarves still would like to be outdoors, otherwise they wouldn't go hiking across the land. Their descendants, however, are just as likely as - or slightly less than - the average dwarf to get agoraphobia as an inborn trait. That would mean they would avoid coming outside, and are practically stuck at their fortress, which they don't mind, since there's mining to do. Comfortable travel to other fortresses would only be possible with special wagons (for nobles, who have to) or tunnel.
Humans and especially elves strike me as the type to have claustrophobia often. They should get an extra penalty anyway, since they are effectively crawling in a tunnel that has the size of a dwarf (Humans really should mine (if) corridors  and build houses of two squares in height). Tactical considerations: elves would then normally stay where they can make use of bows, while having a real hard time to invade a dwarf fortress. Dwarves would need specially selected troops to attack overland, though making a short sortie should be withing the capability of almost any dwarven warrior - except legendary agoraphobiacs.

Advantages:
- cave adaptation does more than vomit
- we get rid of the Lamarckian evolution
- racial differences/flavour are stressed
- there's already a way to indicate the distribution of traits in the raws

Requirements:
- making phobias (or at least this one, for starters) have real impact on behaviour and decisions, not only a happiness bonus or minus.

[RAM]

What if none of your dwarves have gone outside for years, and you just decide to close the doors to stop a draught, and then a siege arrives, but nobody knows about it?

[profit]

The original suggestion would be an ok game mechanic...  But makes no sense for dwarves.

Realism or Gameplay  which is more important.

Course honestly I think the massive hit in frame rate making area's inaccessable causes is not worth sealing off a fort.. and the line of traps to the entrance does the same thing except caravans can go over traps somehow.

[irmo]

If the idea of this is to impose some harmful morale effect from a long-term siege, then the rule ought to say exactly that: your dwarves get morale problems during a long-term siege. None of this "no available path to the edge of the map" business, and no goddamn claustrophobia. The problem isn't the physical confinement, it's the stress of being surrounded by guys that want to kill you.

And here's how you do that: As long as a siege is going on, dwarves don't get positive thoughts. At all. Happiness is suspended for the duration. Negative thoughts, however, have the usual effect. The only exception to this could be "taking joy in slaughter", because kicking some goblin ass might be therapeutic.

When the siege is lifted, everyone gets a massive morale boost.

This seems like a better model for the kind of tense tedium that goes on in a threatened city, and since your Legendary Dining Rooms and other stupid crap no longer work, you have to switch to keeping morale up by satisfying basic needs and making sure everyone keeps busy with work.

[profit]

If the idea of this is to impose some harmful morale effect from a long-term siege, then the rule ought to say exactly that: your dwarves get morale problems during a long-term siege. None of this "no available path to the edge of the map" business, and no goddamn claustrophobia. The problem isn't the physical confinement, it's the stress of being surrounded by guys that want to kill you.

And here's how you do that: As long as a siege is going on, dwarves don't get positive thoughts. At all. Happiness is suspended for the duration. Negative thoughts, however, have the usual effect. The only exception to this could be "taking joy in slaughter", because kicking some goblin ass might be therapeutic.

When the siege is lifted, everyone gets a massive morale boost.

This seems like a better model for the kind of tense tedium that goes on in a threatened city, and since your Legendary Dining Rooms and other stupid crap no longer work, you have to switch to keeping morale up by satisfying basic needs and making sure everyone keeps busy with work.

Ack Common sense....

Run  away!!! Run away!!!!

[Hyndis]

If the idea of this is to impose some harmful morale effect from a long-term siege, then the rule ought to say exactly that: your dwarves get morale problems during a long-term siege. None of this "no available path to the edge of the map" business, and no goddamn claustrophobia. The problem isn't the physical confinement, it's the stress of being surrounded by guys that want to kill you.

It was just a possibility and example of a mechanism for producing that effect with minimal framerate issues. The calculation for seeing if a dwarf cannot reach the edge of the map is the same one that the trade depot uses. If a dwarf cannot reach the edge of the map, goblins cannot reach said dwarf. Thus, a penalty for having a retractable bridge over a 1 tile wide channel and relying on that for defense. And limiting the checks to every time they go on break would be to save CPU cycles.

And here's how you do that: As long as a siege is going on, dwarves don't get positive thoughts. At all. Happiness is suspended for the duration. Negative thoughts, however, have the usual effect. The only exception to this could be "taking joy in slaughter", because kicking some goblin ass might be therapeutic.

When the siege is lifted, everyone gets a massive morale boost.

This seems like a better model for the kind of tense tedium that goes on in a threatened city, and since your Legendary Dining Rooms and other stupid crap no longer work, you have to switch to keeping morale up by satisfying basic needs and making sure everyone keeps busy with work.

Ehh, that would only work if the fortress is filled with miasma or hateful vermin. In a decently designed fortress, even with no positive thoughts at all, it would take a very long time for anything really bad to happen due to unhappy thoughts. Probably too long for it to be really urgent.