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[Zangi]

[CAVE_ADAPTION] = Trump this

Not really.  Can you imagine being a guard, locked in a fort, with little more than the occasional beating to keep things interesting?  Dwarves aren't automatically cave adapt.  If one gets enough of the outside world, they might like it.

Thats why I said personality may also have something to do with it... 

Actually, certain personalities should affect this too, like adventure and excitement seeking... sitting around and getting bored to death = melanchony
and/or
The extra social butterflies who also like 'contact' with the outside world.

Would work the other way too for those not adaptable to caves...

[Idiom]

In tears, he picks up the remains of his adamantine barrel of amontillado and sobs, "That's not fair. That's not fair at all. There was time now. There was all the time I needed... ! It's not fair!"

Could we have claustrophobia and agoraphobia in dwarven personalities? And possibly phobias in general?

[SirHoneyBadger]

And monomania?

[Hyndis]

This sort of negative thoughts for being stuck underground is a gimmick, yes, but its a gimmick designed to prevent cheesy defensives for a fortress. While right now a channel one tile wide is enough to defeat even the mightiest of zombie dragons and goblin armies, locking down the fortress in such a way really ought to cut both ways.

So while you can keep all enemies out, eventually your population will become very unhappy for being locked in, to the point where they'd eventually go insane and start killing each other if they're locked in for too long, which means that you can't simply lock away the outside world and ignore it.

Really, its just an anti-cheese gimmick, an alternative to having goblins with pickaxes who turn the entire mountain into a sponge within a few years. Same sort of effect; you can't hide behind a channel and retractable bridge, just different method of getting the effect.

[RAM]

My dwarves live for cave adaptation, being outside is a form of sacrilege...
Although if the broker was sad if no trading happened for a long time it might be an issue, and trading really helps with mandates...

[Footkerchief]

There's a huge difference between being locked inside a chamber barely big enough to sit down in, and locked inside a luxurious fortress.  I posit that the main difference, at least for a dwarf that cares little for sunlight, is size.  And I think there's a pretty easy way to find the size -- the game can track the size of map areas during the connected-component rebuilds that it already does during map changes.  This would allow any dwarf to know how large of an area they can traverse at any given time.

The unhappy thought associated with being "trapped" could scale with the size of the accessible area, so that a small area would result in claustrophobic madness, a larger area in depression, and a sufficiently large area in no unhappy thought at all.

[Zangi]

Ah that sort of gimmick...  just doesn't seem right to me, unless its some sort of carp-hole or if they have been idle for far far too long...

Them dwarves need to keep busy or go crazy?

[Luke_Prowler]

There's a huge difference between being locked inside a chamber barely big enough to sit down in, and locked inside a luxurious fortress.  I posit that the main difference, at least for a dwarf that cares little for sunlight, is size.  And I think there's a pretty easy way to find the size -- the game can track the size of map areas during the connected-component rebuilds that it already does during map changes.  This would allow any dwarf to know how large of an area they can traverse at any given time.

The unhappy thought associated with being "trapped" could scale with the size of the accessible area, so that a small area would result in claustrophobic madness, a larger area in depression, and a sufficiently large area in no unhappy thought at all.

Soooo...legendary dinning room?

[Shurikane]

Cave adaptation already does the job.

It's also neat to see that the road leading from my entrance to my trade depot consists entirely of vomit.

[Footkerchief]

Cave adaptation already does the job.

The OP is basically talking about claustrophobia.  Cave adaptation is more like claustrophilia.

[Zangi]

Cave adaptation already does the job.

The OP is basically talking about claustrophobia.  Cave adaptation is more like claustrophilia.

As an 'acquired' trait?  >.> 
From that perspective.... its even worse of a reason to give to dwarves... as for non-Dwarves...  that is fine.

I'd say its more of a go stir crazy cause you are stuck in the same hole for a long time with no way out?

Either way... make
A: legendary/masterpiece dwarf fortress
B: very little idling dwarves
C: very drunk dwarves
A+B+C= negate?

Just can't fathom this being Dwarven...

[Footkerchief]

As an 'acquired' trait?  >.> 
From that perspective.... its even worse of a reason to give to dwarves... as for non-Dwarves...  that is fine.

Acquired?  Which one?  If you're talking about cave adaptation, I was only saying it's closer to claustrophilia than phobia, not that it's the same thing.  It makes plenty of sense that dwarves could develop cave adaptation while still being prone to claustrophobia -- cave adaptation is obviously a physiological reaction to protracted darkness, while claustrophobia is a psychological reaction to protracted confinement.  They're practically orthogonal.

I'd say its more of a go stir crazy cause you are stuck in the same hole for a long time with no way out?

"going stir crazy cause you are stuck in the same hole for a long time with no way out" definitely falls under the umbrella of claustrophobia.

Either way... make
A: legendary/masterpiece dwarf fortress
B: very little idling dwarves
C: very drunk dwarves
A+B+C= negate?

I really can't tell what this ABC thing means.  What's being negated?

[Zangi]

As an 'acquired' trait?  >.> 
From that perspective.... its even worse of a reason to give to dwarves... as for non-Dwarves...  that is fine.

Acquired?  Which one?  If you're talking about cave adaptation, I was only saying it's closer to claustrophilia than phobia, not that it's the same thing.  It makes plenty of sense that dwarves could develop cave adaptation while still being prone to claustrophobia -- cave adaptation is obviously a physiological reaction to protracted darkness, while claustrophobia is a psychological reaction to protracted confinement.  They're practically orthogonal.

I'd say its more of a go stir crazy cause you are stuck in the same hole for a long time with no way out?

"going stir crazy cause you are stuck in the same hole for a long time with no way out" definitely falls under the umbrella of claustrophobia.

Either way... make
A: legendary/masterpiece dwarf fortress
B: very little idling dwarves
C: very drunk dwarves
A+B+C= negate?

I really can't tell what this ABC thing means.  What's being negated?

Blegh, guess I'm not being clear enough...   to negate this claustrophobia thing...


In a gist, my problem with this:
Cave Adapt: Urist McDwarf learns to love living in a 'small' dark hole.

(A cave is considered a 'small' dark hole right?  Or what do you define it as...?  Cause the way you just described it sounds more like 'Darkness_Adapt'...)

Claustrophobia: But, oh no... game mechanic rears its head, Urist McDwarf has gained a fear of living in said 'small' dark hole...

You and I clearly arn't seeing the same thing...

[Footkerchief]

In a gist, my problem with this:
Cave Adapt: Urist McDwarf learns to love living in a 'small' dark hole.

(A cave is considered a 'small' dark hole right?  Or what do you define it as...?  Cause the way you just described it sounds more like 'Darkness_Adapt'...)

Claustrophobia: But, oh no... game mechanic rears its head, Urist McDwarf has gained a fear of living in said 'small' dark hole...

You and I clearly arn't seeing the same thing...

Caves don't have to be small.  Dwarves get cave adaptation whether they're living in a gigantic cavern or a tiny cellar.  The common factor is darkness.  So yes, by all indications it could be called "darkness adaptation."

[Zangi]

Caves don't have to be small.  Dwarves get cave adaptation whether they're living in a gigantic cavern or a tiny cellar.  The common factor is darkness.  So yes, by all indications it could be called "darkness adaptation."

Can't say I care to argue this any further... but, I believe I see your reasoning.  Simply, I still don't like it.