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[inaluct]

I include the Celts in my broad and sweeping definition of "Merry Old England."

I think I might be hallucinating this topic. It seems like the embodiment of misanthropy to me.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Including the Celts in 'Merry Old England' would be an extremely "broad and sweeping" definition, yes.

Are you also including the Aboriginies and the Indians? How about 21st century Americans?

Ofcourse, practically every culture on Earth has a faerie equivalent, just as most of them have something that vaguely resembles a dwarf. 

As far as any misanthropy goes, I fail to fathom what this thread has to do with any hatred or distrust of humanity...

You know there's elves in the game already, right?

[inaluct]

I started typing something about how I would drink your children and eat your crumpets, but I stopped myself. I'm too tired and incoherent to adequately express to you why this topic is the ultimate expression of hate and malignancy, but I'm sure it is.

[Folly]

I'm normally not one to dump on another persons ideas...I know I've had plenty of bad ones myself. But I just don't think I like what's being suggested here..

So you want a race that starts out peaceful, and then quickly turns hostile unless the player takes the time to learn and compensate for a bunch of nonsensical rules and protocols...don't we already have nobles for that? And doesn't everyone hate them?

I'm all for adding new races, but it seems like this would require a ton of research and programming just to add an annoyingly unpredictable game element.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I started typing something about how I would drink your children and eat your crumpets, but I stopped myself. I'm too tired and incoherent to adequately express to you why this topic is the ultimate expression of hate and malignancy, but I'm sure it is.

If you're going to be a troll, atleast troll intelligibly. 

Folly: And that's a good point too. If these guys are going to be an enjoyable part of the game, then methods will have to be developed that will make them entertaining.

Some of the pecularities about mythological faeries are, well, peculiar--and that'll have to be addressed in a way that adds to the game in a meaningful way.

I think it could be worthwile, because there's already so many other critters that could have these types of oddnesses going on with them.

Werewolves, trolls, unicorns, various flavours of undead, etc. all have their own bits of "lore" that could be further developed in order to make them stand out.
So it's an area that *could* add interest, potentially.

It's still just potential for now, though.

[inaluct]

I'm not trolling. I'm disagreeing with you.

Anyway, so, it seems like you want more elves, you want "faeries" to become a major vanilla race, and you want them to be unprecedentedly complex?

1. We do not need more elves. Ever. I don't care what bullshit rationalization you try to use, "faeries" are elves.
2. "Faeries" are going to drive potential players away. They'll read through stuff about DF and when they get to the faeries, they'll just say "Wow, this sounds gay," and leave. Faeries are not cool.
3. You're seriously proposing that we add in more cultural information on this civ than currently exists for all the civilized races combined. That's stupid. No one wants to be bombarded with information about some irritating race based on Celtic mythology. DF is not Celtic-flavored, and there's no reason for a major race to introduce the flavor.

[SirHoneyBadger]

You were disagreeing in a trollish manner. And without a lot of articulation.

1: Faeries are not elves. Elves are, specifically, Norse.

2: Considering that there's already been like 5 billion different names used for them, in this thread alone let alone historical sources, fixing the name won't be a problem.

As far as their being "gay", I'm sure we're all aware of the sexual implication of the word "fairy" by now.

If you can't handle a serious conversation about a serious subject, without having a reactionary response--even if you foster it off on "new players"--then maybe you ought to find another conversation?

3: I'm seriously proposing that we add more cultural information on *all* civs. That's called adding depth.

There's no reason *not* to introduce Celtic mythology. Whatever your irrational hatred for it may be, the Vikings and the Celts interacted constantly, so it's very thematic.

Just because you don't like learning new things-which is pretty obvious from the uninformed nature of your posting-doesn't mean that noone likes it.

Aside from that, adding in a few names that noone will recognise who doesn't choose to look up the information themselves, is hardly "bombarding".

[inaluct]

You were disagreeing in a trollish manner.

That's pretty vague.

1: Faeries are not elves. Elves are, specifically, Norse.

Most people don't look at elves in modern video games as particularly Norse. They've become a staple fantasy race with pointy ears and other stuff like that.

2: Considering that there's already been like 5 billion different names used for them, in this thread alone let alone historical sources, fixing the name won't be a problem.

As far as their being "gay", I'm sure we're all aware of the sexual implication of the word "fairy" by now.

Changing the name would be a very good idea.

If you can't handle a serious conversation about a serious subject, without having a reactionary response--even if you foster it off on "new players"--then maybe you ought to find another conversation?

Closer to trolling than anything I've said so far.

3: I'm seriously proposing that we add more cultural information on *all* civs. That's called adding depth.

If you said that anywhere in here, I missed it.

There's no reason *not* to introduce Celtic mythology. Whatever your irrational hatred for it may be, the Vikings and the Celts interacted constantly, so it's very thematic.

DF is not a game about Norse mythology. The current setting is a relatively generic fantasy one, so saying that we should add Celtic mythology because the Vikings and the Celts interacted is pretty irrelevant. There's no reason *not* to add Mesopotamian mythology to the game, but that doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

Adding faeries would suddenly change the game from a generic setting to a Celtic inspired one. Also, someone brought up faery animals; I think that they would detract from the game by replacing other, far more interesting fantasy animals with faery versions of relatively mundane animals. Faery raccoons aren't much more interesting than ordinary raccoons.

[Neonivek]

It is pretty much true... Elves are Fairies in most contexts except as far as Tolkien (and POSSIBLY Norse Normal Elves) are concerned. In fact you go outside of Norse Ordinary elves and you go to the very fae-like elves

I mean... Especially Celtic Elves, Santa Elves, Europian Elves...

Anyhow, I guess what we MAY need to do is do the simple "Lets disable lame by changing the name"

We will call fairies by another name... simple enough... The Fae, The Fair, The Fanciful... It really doesn't matter.

Don't let this get to your head Inaluct... You did write very "Trollishly" if I remember correctly (Which I do not hmmm)

[SirHoneyBadger]

You were disagreeing in a trollish manner.

That's pretty vague.

1: Faeries are not elves. Elves are, specifically, Norse.

Most people don't look at elves in modern video games as particularly Norse. They've become a staple fantasy race with pointy ears and other stuff like that.

2: Considering that there's already been like 5 billion different names used for them, in this thread alone let alone historical sources, fixing the name won't be a problem.

As far as their being "gay", I'm sure we're all aware of the sexual implication of the word "fairy" by now.

Changing the name would be a very good idea.

If you can't handle a serious conversation about a serious subject, without having a reactionary response--even if you foster it off on "new players"--then maybe you ought to find another conversation?

Closer to trolling than anything I've said so far.

3: I'm seriously proposing that we add more cultural information on *all* civs. That's called adding depth.

If you said that anywhere in here, I missed it.

There's no reason *not* to introduce Celtic mythology. Whatever your irrational hatred for it may be, the Vikings and the Celts interacted constantly, so it's very thematic.

DF is not a game about Norse mythology. The current setting is a relatively generic fantasy one, so saying that we should add Celtic mythology because the Vikings and the Celts interacted is pretty irrelevant. There's no reason *not* to add Mesopotamian mythology to the game, but that doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

Adding faeries would suddenly change the game from a generic setting to a Celtic inspired one. Also, someone brought up faery animals; I think that they would detract from the game by replacing other, far more interesting fantasy animals with faery versions of relatively mundane animals. Faery raccoons aren't much more interesting than ordinary raccoons.

This is useful. Thank you.

And I appologise if I was a bit reactionary, in my own responses.

You're absolutely right about the unfortunate name.

I somewhat disagree that it's an entirely generic fantasy setting, in it's current incarnation, but yes, I would like to see a shift from more generic to more mythic.

I'm not saying that's what Toady intends, but it's what I personally want, and I do strongly believe that such a shift would make the game more interesting, rather than less.

Neonivek: I think it came off as more trollish than inaluct may have intended. So I may have been out of line. It can be hard to tell on the internet, sometimes.

[Fensfield]

As for fae animals, that was me, and you're running on bad assumptions there inaluct.  I suggested non-human fae beings, rather a big difference, since that's basically stuff like unicorns - they come from a similar folk-loric root.  So is DF gay already, being as it contains more than one fae animal in fact?  Besides, I've yet to meet anyone who considers the inclusion of fae concepts in a game (where it isn't grossly inappropriate) to be gay - and I know quite a few gamer's to whom I've suggested such in various situations, few reacted any other way than enthusiastic.  Indeed, the only people I know who consider Fairy to be gay, are the sort of people who'd declare videogames to be gay in the same sentence.

Myself, I'd accept the decision to not use a bluntly Fairy/whatever spelling name for the race - indeed, Fair Folk or something might be more fun - but I guess I'd personally not see reason.

I'm Still waiting on more detail from the suggesters on how Fairy court concepts - court of time, season, etc, might work as a gameplay element, though.  Thus far we seem only to have suggested concepts and not how they might be integrated into gameplay after all.

[inaluct]

I apologize if I got tensions running high, here.  :I

Also, I never actually called the idea gay. I just said that people would see the name and drop it like a... Uh... Lawsuit against a firm of lawyers, or something.

Anyway, what did you mean by faery animals, then? Besides unicorns?

[Fensfield]

*laughs*

I have to admit, I wasn't completely sure when I made the suggestion, it was more an aside XD  I know I didn't merely mean 'fae versions of animals', but I admit, little springs to mind.. especially now that you're raccoon comparison has the Japanese tanuki running around in my head x.x

Rather just weird and wonderful creatures that might be turned out by magic rather than the mundane world.    Creatures that would be more at home in whatever plane Fairy might be associated with than the mortal world.. or so.

[Neonivek]

As for Courts

I suggest that each Civilisation of the Fairy should be its own Court

The Fairy Civilisation should represent a flexable, chaotic, civilisation that varys from town to town in both its residents and oppinions.

Of course Infighting should more then be possible with the Courts attacking eachother.

Making Fairies more Tribal.

Courts should be based on the alligned land they life in. In a Justice Land they could be the "Order Court" or "Majesty Court" or any term that fits in with the Justice Sphere.

[SirHoneyBadger]

That's ok inaluct. I wasn't in the best of moods, and it's a subject that tends to make me slightly twitchy.

Maybe the Fae could be directly sphere-based? Like each sphere could have it's own types of Fair Folk residents that would occupy the Courts (each defined by a separate sphere), acting as residents/courtiers/hangers-on/retired gods, while the prominent gods are in residence.

That would be kind of cool--and allow a lot of flexibility and adaptation of different mythologies, with again the differentiation of seasons, which I'll try to post something about at some point in time, in a vague, semi-commital sort of way.