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[rylen]

I've been thinking about the new no-irrigation soils and farm plots lasting all year.  I understand that farming can't have too high a learning curve, or be exceedingly difficult the first year.  I think I have a solution that brings complications and options in, without providing new players a huge hurdle.

As people farm land, the soil degrades.  To oversimplify, each crop takes vial nutrients, leaving the land poorer.  Unless it is tended, crop yield will decline.

I propose:

• Soil fertility be ranked from Very Rich Soil (bold, dark green), to Average (tan), to Barren (dull grey) to represent quality.  Harvest sizes are influenced by soil quality.
  
• Starting soils have default values.  Sand is a poor soil.  Loam is a bit better.  Adding river mud drags you towards Average.
  
• Fertilizing an area improves the soil.  Benefits no longer go away each season but decline with use.  This may be the only way to get the best fertility.
  
• Not growing anything slowly restores the soil.
  

Pros:
This still allows easy farming for newcomers.  As time goes on, there are strategic choices: invest in fertilizer, build a mud farm, or keep a large number of fields.

Cons:
Depending on how its implemented, this is up to an extra byte of data per square.  I can see keeping the data only for unmodified, unreverted squares, but its still a decent amount.

Further wrinkles:
In addition to potash fertilizer, we can grow plants and plow them back into the soil.  Yet another use for Pig Tails.

Rylen

[Karlito]

I like this idea.  It makes me want some legumes in the game, which are able to get nitrogen from other sources then other plants.  So when you plat beans for a season the soil becomes more fertile rather than less.

[Aquillion]

I'm pretty sure Toady has said that something like this is already planned.

[Armok]

Seconded.

[Shades]

I actually assumed that different soil types had different yields already. oh well  

I like the idea.

[rylen]

quote:Originally posted by Aquillion:
<STRONG>I'm pretty sure Toady has said that something like this is already planned.</STRONG>

I poked around the dev_single page and found:  Soil Quality:  Farmers likes this.

So, I hope he considers this sooner then later.  And he thinks of my proposal when he does.

Rylen

[Zurai]

The game already handles this, in a way.

For one thing, you can already "farm out" a farm plot for the year. The easiest way to do this is to do two straight months of Sweet Pod farming followed by Cave Wheat. The Sweet Pods will stop being planted partly into summer, and the Cave Wheat will stop being planted partly into autumn. At that point, you won't be able to plant anything else in that plot for the rest of the year, even if you demolish and re-make the farm plot.

For another, farm plots that are in close proximity have their yield linked together. You can have four 5x7 plots arranged in a row and only farm on one of them (leaving the other three fallow) and still run into the problem described above on all four plots.

The only difference between your system and the current system, looking at it objectively, is that your system doesn't reset every spring.

[Fenrir]

So, in the current version, is there any reason for a farm plot to stand fallow?

[PTTG??]

quote:Originally posted by Zurai:
<STRONG>The game already handles this, in a way.

For one thing, you can already "farm out" a farm plot for the year. The easiest way to do this is to do two straight months of Sweet Pod farming followed by Cave Wheat. The Sweet Pods will stop being planted partly into summer, and the Cave Wheat will stop being planted partly into autumn. At that point, you won't be able to plant anything else in that plot for the rest of the year, even if you demolish and re-make the farm plot.

For another, farm plots that are in close proximity have their yield linked together. You can have four 5x7 plots arranged in a row and only farm on one of them (leaving the other three fallow) and still run into the problem described above on all four plots.

The only difference between your system and the current system, looking at it objectively, is that your system doesn't reset every spring.</STRONG>

What you are seeing is that each crop has a growing season, and if it won't finish growing before the season changes, the dwarves won't plant it. This is different from the above suggestion because that describes a tile-based rating of fertility, not a time based one.

[Toady One]

I think I had mentioned somewhere else that I had downloaded a bunch of NPK tables and had added bone meal to the game currently as a flavor object but to be used later for its phosporous content.  Not that you'd have to deal with the numerics.  A skilled farmer would probably provide a workable interface with suggestions for improving deficient soil, but I think having it work on the three different levels would provide for varied challenges.

[Zurai]

quote:Originally posted by PTTG??:
<STRONG>

What you are seeing is that each crop has a growing season, and if it won't finish growing before the season changes, the dwarves won't plant it. This is different from the above suggestion because that describes a tile-based rating of fertility, not a time based one.</STRONG>

False on all counts. One, plants can be planted up to the last day of the season and will continue to grow until they pop up in the next season ready to be harvested. Two, using the method I described above, I can get plump helmets to be redded-out by autumn and not be available to be planted again until the next spring. That includes selecting them for winter planting on the first day of winter.

[RPB]

quote:Originally posted by Zurai:
<STRONG>One, plants can be planted up to the last day of the season and will continue to grow until they pop up in the next season ready to be harvested. Two, using the method I described above, I can get plump helmets to be redded-out by autumn and not be available to be planted again until the next spring. That includes selecting them for winter planting on the first day of winter.</STRONG>

Using the method you've described above, I get the same results as PTTG: crops go red and become unplantable at a seemingly random point in the middle of their last plantable season, and no combination of crops has ever resulted in other crops going red during their normal planting seasons. Evidently there is something else going on.

[Zurai]

   

This is an image of my current farming setup. I do not farm cave wheat since I don't have a mill to process it. Yet, cave wheat is still redded out, even though no farm is producing it and there is still plenty of time for a crop of it to be farmed. Cave wheat takes the same amount of time as quarry bushes to mature, so by PTTG's interpretation they should also be redded out. Earlier this year I had two of the fields producing sweet pods, which supports my interpretation.

[ November 08, 2007: Message edited by: Zurai ]

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>I think I had mentioned somewhere else that I had downloaded a bunch of NPK tables and had added bone meal to the game currently as a flavor object but to be used later for its phosporous content.  Not that you'd have to deal with the numerics.  A skilled farmer would probably provide a workable interface with suggestions for improving deficient soil, but I think having it work on the three different levels would provide for varied challenges.</STRONG>

The number of options available will depend on the skills of your available farmers?  I like that idea.  So when you have no skilled growers in your fortress, your options are "put seeds in dirt" and "don't put seeds in dirt", while if you have your legendary grower on the job then your options will be more like "measure exact phosphorus content and stabilize PH balance for optimal long-term harvest".

[ November 11, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Len B]

quote:Originally posted by Aquillion:
<STRONG>The number of options available will depend on the skills of your available farmers?  I like that idea.  So when you have no skilled growers in your fortress, your options are "put seeds in dirt" and "don't put seeds in dirt", while if you have your legendary grower on the job then your options will be more like "measure exact phosphorus content and stabilize PH balance for optimal long-term harvest".

[ November 11, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]</STRONG>

What about the "measure exact fertilizer to maximize short-term growth of plump helmets to brew and stave off the impending revolution due to lack of alcohol" and "optimize fertilizer for plot with [x,x,x,x] seasonal permutation of crops"?  I like this kind of options that really make skills MORE meaningful...

Edited - I didn't mean to imply skills are not currently meaningful.

[ November 13, 2007: Message edited by: Len B ]