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[Cajoes]

Well I'm struggling to see how a fat person could stop a freewheeling trolley, - if he was indeed fat enough to stop several tons of metal on a incline, I'd likely require a pulley or a large stick to push the immovable blob.

With my lithe frame I'd have better chances jumping onto the trolley and deploying whatever emergency brakes are available.

Is there some way we can kill both the fat man and the five gits down the tracks? I don't like leaving a moral puzzle unsolved.

[Strife26]

That the Army does more good than bad is my fundamental belief.

[umiman]

Yanlin: They pay me to save them. I don't use the money to save them.

In other words, either the fat man pays me not to push him or the people inside the cart pay me to push him.

Strife: I doubt the army has it's own will. It just follows orders. It doesn't have concepts of good or bad. It just has to assume, like you are now, that it is doing more good than bad and radically defend that belief with force of arms and a firm faith that what its doing is right. An army with a conscience cannot exist.

It's really no different from religion. I'm not implying that these are bad concepts, but whenever the army ever decides to form its own opinions, it forms dictatorships.

[JoshuaFH]

That's a dumb analogy. Whether or not to "push the fat man" in order to "stop the trolley" isn't so much as being purposefully evil for selfish gain as it is doing necessary evil for the survival of many.

Allow me, if I can, to make a better analogy, to be more relevant to the topic.

"Why Hello there, I'm your friendly neigborhood Satan. I understand that life is hard, but I can make that loads easier, for a small price, your soul. You want something, anything at all, just ask. You want wealth? I'll make you wealthy beyond your wildest dreams for the rest of your life. What you want doesn't even have to be material, it can be love and happiness even, I'll make it happen. Are you paralyzed? I'll let you walk. Are you blind? I'll let you see. Do you or anyone you know have a terminal illness? POOF! it's gone. Ask for anything you want, I mean it, no strings attached, but you know what I want..."

What I'm essentially saying, is, would you sell your soul for anything in the world?

[umiman]

You can't possibly get a fair deal with Satan. It's not logically possible. I believe they have to teach entire classes to educate people who can't make that distinction by themselves.

Allow me to extrapolate:

The rules of the game are that Satan will give you anything in exchange for your immortal soul. Obviously, if he can't get your soul within an infinite timespan, then there's no deal and no trade will take place. This is because there's no point in the contract if he can't get something in exchange, which is only your immortal soul. Therefore, in order for a contract to take place, you must at some point, lose control of your immortal soul (which by definition, lasts infinitely).

You can't negotiate ANYTHING that can overvalue that of infinity. Even if you think your soul is worth shit, shit x infinity is still a damn good thing. You can get a life of gods for 10 billion years and you'd then have to sell your soul for an infinite amount of time. It's not fair. It can't be fair. You can't negotiate anything that makes infinity fair. You'd be amazingly stupid to not be able to count the value of an infinite amount.

Ignoring for a moment that it's probably impossible to outsmart the devil unless you're in a sitcom or a webcomic, you'd still lose even if RIGHT NOW you think you got a damn good deal. It's like taking an offer where for no money upfront now, you get this amazing yatch! But starting from next year, you owe us $9000 every month forever. Except in this case, forever isn't limited by your death.

I don't think hell exists, but I certainly think this offer is not in anyone's best interests.

[JoshuaFH]

Of course Umi, you make a damn good point. I already know all this, I just wanted to antagonize someone to bring it up, so I can make my ultimate evil rebuttal.

If you could, in some outlandish scenario, would you sell someone else's soul to get anything you want?

[umiman]

Of course.

[JoshuaFH]

Of course.

and if, in this situation, this exchange only worked if the other person were someone you loved. Your child, your brother, your wife, etc?

[umiman]

Without hesitation. I have an extremely convoluted reason for that but the basic answer is yes without any further thought.

[woose1]

I'm starting to speak french in Quebec. Also, I just made myself a Quebec Sandweech!

[Cajoes]

I'm starting to speak french in Quebec. Also, I just made myself a Quebec Sandweech!

Does it have puppies and or kittens in it?

[woose1]

I'm starting to speak french in Quebec. Also, I just made myself a Quebec Sandweech!

Does it have puppies and or kittens in it?

Both. And poptarts, and ketchup.

[Chandrasekhar]

Hum...  My gut reaction is that I wouldn't kill anyone for money, but that's just because there isn't really much that I want that money can buy.  If someone were holding hostage someone important to me, and I had some good reason to think that they were trustworthy enough to hold up their end of the deal, there's no limit to what I'd do.  Though, if said hostage were to ask that I just let them die or whatever, I'd most likely honor their wishes.

The trolley question is very interesting.  I took a college course on ethics awhile back that might be applicable.  I think I'll start up a thread on the subject sometime.

[Armok]

Abaut the kill for money thing: kinda like some have said, I probably wouldn't, but not for any moral reason only because I'm afraid for the law and I don't really want anything money can buy.

Abut selling my soul: this is an interesting one, generally, it depends.
I could imagine making a deal in which the soul is duplicated 10 times, whit one copy going to eternal torment and the remaining 9 eternal perfection, thus I get 9 times as much good stuff than bad stuff, that all the numbers are infinities is not as relevant as it would seem to someone who doesn't know the math.
Another version of this would be to wish for another time dimension, the devil get one time line of soul (that has infinite length, thus an infinite amount of time) but as time is two dimensional even a hour² would have an area and thus be greater than an infinite line which does not have an area. I would have infinite area of time, or actually if the which was unlimited, n-dimensional time. If the devil cant make a new time dimension, even keeping time linear you could do something like letting the devil have the soul for ∞ seconds while afterwards it is restored to it's previous state (removing the memories and trauma of eternal suffering) and you get to live in perfection for ∞² millennia, or ∞^∞ gogolplex millennia, or some such.
summary; you don't HAVE to trick the devil, if you know some math you can get a deal which makes both happy. The key to defeating infinity is to know that there are things much larger than infinity.

Selling someone else's soul: I would, without hesitation.

[Psyco Jelly]

I am generally amoral, and will do anything if i see it as a fair deal. My life? Hell no. I would rather put ten thousand innocents to death then die myself. Probably my self-preservation instinct, but I will not give up my life. Actually, I'd give up my life if there would be undeath involved. As a restatement I would not give up my will.

I will not deal with souls.