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[Lightning4]

With dwarves able to marry in the coming release, we are going to be seeing a lot more children, and thus, a lot more dwarves. It'll be a population explosion, and this might not be a good thing for the already huge 200 pop fortresses.

So besides killing them off, perhaps there should be another method of losing the dwarves. Fortresses could have an emigration policy setting, so you can freely set it based on preferences. You can forbid people from leaving, only allow peasants to leave, or allow everyone to leave if they wish, even craftsmen and military dwarves.

As far as I remember, there's a lot of things that'll already allow this. Migration groups seem to be pretty functional, and unless it's changed from the 2D version, dwarves from your fortress do show up in other locations of the world. There could be the possibility of them coming back some time later, or even meeting them in adventure mode.

[Hague]

Well, I'd like it if a tantruming dwarf just decides to pack up and leave instead of going on a psychotic rampage. They might go on a rampage if there is a siege going on, though.

[thvaz]

I agree that unhappy dwarves should sometimes just leave. The real problem would be that most of my dwarves are most of the time ecstastic. :

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by thvaz:
<STRONG>I agree that unhappy dwarves should sometimes just leave.</STRONG>

As long as it doesn't get to the problems that most civ games that have emigration face:

No workforce to make things better. *cough* Stronghold 2, I'm looking at you.  Of course SH2 didn't have enough ways to make people happy...and it took a requisit minimum number of people to keep things running (ussually 3/4 of the population).

[thvaz]

Well, it is easier to please few dwarves than many. No enough beds? Food? If some dwarves pack their belongings and try to make a live somewhere else, those left behind will be happier.

[Draco18s]

True, but if you've never played Stronghold 2, then let me elaborate.

You start with 8 dudes and no food, you place a stockpile and a grannery, and are immediately warned that "sire, the foodstocks are empty."  You then build 4 to 6 apple farms in order to increase the food supply as rapidly as possible and all the while you're warned that "sire, the foodstocks are extremely low."
With your other 3 or so dudes, you set about having some of them harvest wood (2 probably) so that with wood you can build more buildings (which you hopefully didn't already build and waste your 10 starting wood so that you now can't build a saw pit).
Things are going well, you build a hovel, attracting 4 more dudes to your castle/keep and set them about doing more things.  Having stockpiled some 60 rations worth of apples (enough to feed 12 people for a year or something absurdly long like that) you scrap all but 2 of your apple farms and build some other kinds, like cheese or wheat (vegetable, eels, pigs, hops, and a couple others; 4 foods go to the granery, the other...5? go to the "lord's kitchen."  cheese and bread go to the grannery).  To turn the wheat into bread for food, you set about a dude working the bakery and two dudes at the mill turning it into flour.  If I remember my approximation, I could run two-and-a-half wheat farms per mill, and 4 bakeries per mill without leaving anyone without a job.

Why more food types?  Becuase for each additional food type beyond the first your guys got +1 happyness and you got +1 renoun.  Note: anything that went to the Lords Kitchen doesn't count, that's for FEASTS ONLY, which happen when they happen, never did figure out exactly what they do.

Well, to support all of this agricultural boom, you need more guys!  2 apple farms, 2 wheat farms, 2 miller, 2 woodcutters, 4 bakers, a hops farmer, and a brewer (because beer is a staple food!).  That's 14, we're only at 12.  Lets build another hovel, +4 dudes.

Uh oh.  Now we have a problem.  All of this food-eating is causing digestion, and digestion causes...gong!  And it's everywhere!  Quick, we set our two free dudes at Gong Farmers, they'll trundle over to a pile of waste and take it back to their gong pit.

But we still have a problem.  Ever minute of real time (or about as long as it takes a guy/horse/person rolling a keg of booze) to walk the length of two farms EACH gong pile generates -4 happyness.

-4 times...lets make this easy, 3.  That's 12 unhappyness versus the +2 per month we're currently getting from feeding our peasants (a month is about 10 minutes of real time, I think).  It takes roughly 3 minutes for the first two gong piles to be cleared up and another 6 for the last (and the fourth which was generated in that time).  So, in a month our peasants lost 60 happyness and gained back 2.

Oh crap.  Guess what now: fire.  It's burning buildings down.
We were idiots and built them out of wood.
Quick!  Build a well! (which costs stone, which we would have had miners digging out--takes 3 dudes + another hovel).
Each well has one guy who's sole life purpose is to stand next to that well with a full bucket of water in his arms looking for burning buildings.  If he sees one, he runs over and throws water at it, putting it out (I still don't get this, one bucket, sometimes two, miraculously puts out a blazing inferno).

Fire doesn't directly cause unhaappyness, thank god, but it can burn down your important happyness-generation-buildings, such as your only hops farm (which has other problems, such as the extremely rare once a month "all your crops are diseased" event which effects every one of your planted hops bushes, killing them (thankfully you just built this farm and the other half is still unplanted).  Or it can burn down your grannery taking all of your food with it.  Or it can take out your gong pit (?), causing waste to be left where it's dropped, attracting rats (direct unhappyness), forcing you to build a falconer's post to deal with THAT problem...

At about -40 unhappyness a couple of dudes emigrate.
At about -80 some more leave.
At about -100 all but the most stout and uncaring 8 have left and are unable to fix the problems the other 12 to 20 created.

I never did find another way (besides building a church, which grants a one-time happyness bonus of about 10) to generate happyness.

[thvaz]

Well, I guess this is why they said Stronghold 2 destroyed the series

[The-Moon]

I don't think anyone cares that much here about stronghold 2 to acctally read through all of that.

Stronghold 2 was a completely different game then this one...

[Anti-Paragon]

*raises hand* I cared enough. Despite it being a different game it was being used to make a point.

[thvaz]

Indeed. At least it was more on-topic than The-Moon post.

[ February 15, 2008: Message edited by: thvaz ]

[The-Moon]

Sorry about that.

If anyone played stronghold they would realize its more of a arcade game then something you have to think with.

I don't see a point as comparing that game with this one, or even using it to make a point. Theres no points in stronghold 2   Horrible game, game series was destroyed once they got rid of the game play and added in 3d graphics. As which happens with most 2d games. 1503 or something, i think it was did the same thing :\

Sorry Draco18s if i offended you..... My bad.

So you want something a bit more on topic from me?  

Alright lets see if i can bring some positive thoughts to this thread...

Emigration Policy....

Question: Why do dwarfs want to live in your fortress, when they can move to another one.

1:Work, if there is available work, dwarfs should be a lot less likely to leave
2:If there is not enough work, dwarfs will leave when they have not worked in a while. They will leave to find work.

These 2 factors should be the main things which effect weather Dwarfs leave or not. Dwarfs will leave if theres no work for them to do.

3:Alcohol, While alcohol is important, it should not be a single factor which makes dwarfs leave the fortress.

4:Security and Military. If the fortress is secure and there is a good military, then people would be less likely to leave. If dwarfs feel un-protective they should tell your Trader/sheriff/Head Dwarf that they will leave if something is not done.

In Fact.

When dwarfs have problems, or unhappy for any reason, it would be good for them to contact your head dwarf, and let that dwarf know(IE send you a msg) that, the dwarf is unhappy and will leave if something is not done about a certain thing that the dwarf is unhappy with.

5:This would of course be food supply.

6:Anything else which i didn't mention

(I may edit this reply)

[ February 15, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[Sowelu]

You want offtopic posts about morale in realtime games?  Go try Outpost 2.  It doesn't have emigration, but it has something worse: Unhappy people have fewer kids, and die slightly more frequently.  You spend SO much time working on your morale in that game.  Never mind that converting workers to scientists reduces the birth rate, too.  And going over and blowing up your enemies' civilian structures reduces morale as well... That was a good game.

Uh, what was I talking about?

Oh yeah, emigration.  I like that idea a *LOT*.  Would be nice to have some idea how loyal people are, too... People who were born in your fortress should be loyal enough to stick it out when others leave.  Military training should increase loyalty, too.  (If you get constant attacks, then your military might feel very strongly about defending the homeland, but your civilians just pick up and leave...Solution? Make everyone serve in the military! Everyone trains, everyone gets to squish a few goblins, and now they don't want to leave the home they fought for.)

Unhappy nobles should also be willing to leave.  More interesting for noble-lovers, and more fun for noble-haters.

Oh yeah...And having a lot of culture should increase loyalty to an extent, too. All those statues and engravings make people a little happier, but maybe more importantly, they give your site a history that they want to be a part of (instead of just taking off).

Emigration could happen in waves, like immigration.  Emigrations can be historic events (so can immigration).  If an emigrant gets killed, less loyal people get VERY UNHAPPY (and they're more likely to tantrum instead of leaving).

[ February 15, 2008: Message edited by: Sowelu ]

[The-Moon]

Also if you read my reply....

Recruits would be less likely to leave since they always have jobs. When you put jobs above everything else, it would take a lot to get recruits to leave.

The only time they would be likely to leave is when you remove them from active duty and make them workers again. Then there is a chance they will not be working.

[ February 15, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[The-Moon]

Double Post, my bad, but this is important.

When someone leaves. They should drop anything which is not basic clothing.

That way there not taking anything you need, Like full steel plate armor  

[Sowelu]

I didn't really read your reply in depth before.  I don't think work is that important though.  Some dwarves may be workaholics and be unhappy if they don't have work, that's a fine use of personalities...Maybe most dwarves are workaholics even, but there's surely plenty who are not.  Work, for many, is just a means to an end, and that end is GOLD.

Hmm, actually, that is a pretty interesting other angle.  People who like to be surrounded by ever-increasing wealth.  As long as the fortress keeps expanding, they are somewhat happy, as they live in a better and better place.  But even better is increasing your personal fortune and your family's fortune.  If you can't work, you can't do that, most of the time...

A very wealthy fortress with truly expert craftsmen may have a life of leisure with good food, good drinks, and mostly sitting around idle.  If you can get paid the same for a day's work in that fortress that you can for a month's work in another place, why work fulltime?  You certainly wouldn't feel compelled to leave!

Of course, that's just one angle on dwarven motives.  It seems easy enough to tie into general happiness, and actually it probably already is tied in pretty well...  So, eh.

It'd be pretty interesting if whole families immigrated/emigrated together though.  Not just father/mother/children, but grandfather, great-uncle, great-great-grandmother, the whole line.  If you had to keep grandfather happy to keep him from dragging his brood to another place, it'd be very challenging!  It would *also* be the perfect person to make into an assigned noble, and give posh quarters and well-paying, low-stress work...

Also:  The-Moon, you know, that little 'pencil on paper' icon up and to the right of your post? That's the 'edit' button. You can use it instead of making a second post.

[ February 15, 2008: Message edited by: Sowelu ]