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[Puck]

This is funny... because Sims is one of those examples that actually makes me wanna think that people ARE in fact dumb.
Wasn't there some great poet or philosopher that said something like the individual is rarely ever dumb, but thousands of individuals together are... something like that... it probably doesnt apply here anyway.

Whatever, what I was going to say about sims is the following:
As far as I understand it, the sims were originally ... "architecture software". I think the sims originally were artificial human beings to test the effects of lighting and furniture and room layout on the future inhabitants of a house.

To me, that sounds great.

Now look at the finished product, and what kind of crap needed to be implemented before it could become commercially successful, as a game.

[Sowelu]

I'm pretty sure at least Duke 3D operated in 3D. I recall there being bridges (meaning platforms above walkable areas), which would probably be pretty fucked if enemies below it could block you above. The jetpack would be pretty screwed as well.

There are Doom engine rewrites that keep the same 2.5D system, but allow jumping and standing on heads.  So the fact that Duke allows jetpacks and doesn't handle collision as a bunch of infinite columns doesn't mean much.

I DO know that water definately wasn't in the same place on the mapper--when you touch a water 'floor', it's basically a portal to somewhere else, and I think portals were pretty common in general in their level designs.  True that there's a bridge though, and there are slopes, and I believe sloping rooftops above windows.  Duke3d had -awesome- level designers that made the engine's limitations more or less invisible.  However I'm pretty sure you couldn't make, for example, the big spiraly room in Quake 1 E1M1 in Duke3d.  In any case I'm pretty sure the Duke3d engine didn't use brushes like Quake did.

Now I want to find a mapper for that game.  Huh.

[Virtz]

There are Doom engine rewrites that keep the same 2.5D system, but allow jumping and standing on heads.  So the fact that Duke allows jetpacks and doesn't handle collision as a bunch of infinite columns doesn't mean much.

Actually, it does. It means that colissions actually work in 3D. With primitive hitboxes, but still in 3D. The only way Duke 3D isn't actually "3D" is visually.

I DO know that water definately wasn't in the same place on the mapper--when you touch a water 'floor', it's basically a portal to somewhere else, and I think portals were pretty common in general in their level designs.  True that there's a bridge though, and there are slopes, and I believe sloping rooftops above windows.  Duke3d had -awesome- level designers that made the engine's limitations more or less invisible.  However I'm pretty sure you couldn't make, for example, the big spiraly room in Quake 1 E1M1 in Duke3d.  In any case I'm pretty sure the Duke3d engine didn't use brushes like Quake did.

Now I want to find a mapper for that game.  Huh.

I'm not sure if you meant to use that as an argument stating that Duke 3D isn't really 3D, but if so, then I can't see how that works. To me that's like saying Quake isn't really 3D because it warps between maps rather than use one big map throughout the whole game. I just don't see the relevance.

And I'm fairly certain you could do whatever map design there was in Quake in Duke 3D, just that it'd be harder and would quite likely run horrible due to its engine not being meant for such polycounts (although I'm actually clueless about the level polycounts in Duke3D and Quake).

[freeze]

Old school incoming

xcom
jagged alliance 2
smac
warcraft 2
thief:tdp


dwarf fortress < 3 feet high and rising

[Strife26]

FF7!

[Yolan]

Man, I can't believe nobody has mentioned the Ultima's. 

I gotta say, Ultima 7 the Black Gate is undoubtedly the best game I have ever played. Esp. considering it came out in 1992. Several have come close since, like Baldurs Gate, or Fallout, but no for me its gotta be Ultima.

U7 part II, the Serpent Isle was also great. And of course, Ultima Underworlds I and II, and the worlds of Ultima games: Savage Isle/Martian Dreams.

A lot of people hate ultima 8.. but I actually kinda liked it. Lots of crappy things about it, but a nice overall feel as far as music, graphics, etc. Wowed the pants off of me when I was a kid. Ultima 9 is def a stinker tho.

[Yolan]

On that note, check out exult.sourceforge.com for an amazing program that lets you play U7 parts I and II in windows, with higher res. Simply amazing.

[Puck]

Man, I can't believe nobody has mentioned the Ultima's. 

I'm pretty sure I did 

[Tormy]

Man, I can't believe nobody has mentioned the Ultima's. 

I gotta say, Ultima 7 the Black Gate is undoubtedly the best game I have ever played. Esp. considering it came out in 1992. Several have come close since, like Baldurs Gate, or Fallout, but no for me its gotta be Ultima.

U7 part II, the Serpent Isle was also great. And of course, Ultima Underworlds I and II, and the worlds of Ultima games: Savage Isle/Martian Dreams.

A lot of people hate ultima 8.. but I actually kinda liked it. Lots of crappy things about it, but a nice overall feel as far as music, graphics, etc. Wowed the pants off of me when I was a kid. Ultima 9 is def a stinker tho.

If we are talking about RPGs...what about Wizardry VI.? That was an awesome game also.

[Sordid]

jagged alliance 2

Yes. Oh for the love of all that is right and holy, yes! That thing's ten years old and I haven't gotten bored of it yet. It's just one of those games (although the 1.13 mod might have something to do with it).