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[praguepride]

Unless their xenophobic a**holes like some dwarves/elves/humans/gobbos are portrayed.

[SirHoneyBadger]

There's certainly no reason to think that race A wouldn't prefer someone of race B over another member of race A (or caste, or whatever)

Sure there is. It's called specieism, which I would wager would be even worse than racism. Maybe not a fact, but definitely a reasonable assumption. For evidence of that, we have to look no further than our treatment of the orangutan, or the portrayal of aliens in 1950s B movies.

I mean, it took a couple hundred years for us to elect a (half) black man to Presidency in my country, and we have yet to elect a woman. I still think that George W rode in mainly on the force of him being so god-damned American.

Dwarfs and elves and (probably especially) goblins may have more enlightened views, but humans, as a whole, are an untrusting lot.

[LegoLord]

Keep in mind a lot of racism is caused by fear of change.  The racist is not used to seeing someone so different from them, and gets a bit freaked out.  When the races have settlements close to each other and frequently trade with each other, specieism might not come up so often.

Racism is not a natural thing, it is a psychological conditioning.  To exist, it requires the appropriate conditions, such as those stated above.

[Granite26]

Racism is not a natural thing, it is a psychological conditioning.  To exist, it requires the appropriate conditions, such as those stated above.

Wait what?

It's perfectly natural... people who look like me share more genes with me than someone who doesn't.  If I help those that are genetically similar to me at the expense of those who aren't, more of my genes survive.

You're spouting liberal anti-science claptrap.

There's certainly no reason to think that race A wouldn't prefer someone of race B over another member of race A (or caste, or whatever)

Sure there is. It's called specieism

Right, right right, I'm not even talking about enlightenment.  I'm talking about goblins prefering to have demon leaders to other goblins, a cultural perception that Silver Fangs make the best sept leaders, and that jackass 'Elves are perfect' mentality some people have.

[Pilsu]

Takes more than trade to make you like someone. Dwarves and humans probably tolerate each other, at least it is my understanding that wars between the two during worldgen are rare. Suggesting they would completely trust each other is unlikely at best

Just about anything from bonobos to humans act like pricks to members of another pack, let alone a species. Idealistic as you may be, some level of racism should probably be the baseline

[SirHoneyBadger]

We do seem to be getting less and less racist over time, slowly, but that's a direct result of psychological conditioning. The good, moral kind.

[Pilsu]

It's not done because of morals. Morals and 'good' are just victims tied to the real agenda to shield it from criticism. Picture a tank with babies strapped to it

[Granite26]

We do seem to be getting less and less racist over time, slowly, but that's a direct result of psychological conditioning. The good, moral kind.

I don't know if I agree with that, either.  I think most people are (in actions, not words) just as insular as they've always been, it's just applied differently (Most people have larger circles that encompass more of humanity)

[SirHoneyBadger]

The "good, moral" comment was really meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

In some ways we're even more insular. I don't know my neighbors' last names, unless I look at their mailboxes, and we're only on a first name basis with one of them.

But we're a lot more exposed to other cultures, races, parts of the world, and ways of doing things; and with that exposure, over time, it becomes a lot easier to spot the various ways that things are, and are done, the same.

That takes most of the fear out of it, because--wow, they're humans, they do human things, think human thoughts, have little baby humans, and deal with some of the same shit I have to deal with every day, only maybe moreso. And their food tastes pretty good, too, a lot of the time.

So the same social skills that I used when I was working in retail, to cope with interacting constantly with new people (in good moods or bad), I'd be able to apply if I visited a country I've never been to before.

Their leaders might be crazy, and have their heads up their asses, but that's a lot like retail, too.

[LegoLord]

We do seem to be getting less and less racist over time, slowly, but that's a direct result of psychological conditioning. The good, moral kind.

I don't know if I agree with that, either.  I think most people are (in actions, not words) just as insular as they've always been, it's just applied differently (Most people have larger circles that encompass more of humanity)

I hate you now.  Not everyone is an insulist.  Any way, that was a stupid argument, the gene thing.  It is, evolutionarily speaking, unsound.  A lot of racism against, say, African Americans, was made as justification for slavery.   Old Bob Slavetrader say:  "Hey, they've been livin' thar fer ages an' ha'ent got any o' our fancy doodads, they must not be as good as us!"  The flaw in that is that environment has a huge impact on technological development. 

It's not the direct cause of it racism, but know that racism is not natural; it is rejection of genes that have proved successful in another area.

[SirHoneyBadger]

We do seem to be getting less and less racist over time, slowly, but that's a direct result of psychological conditioning. The good, moral kind.

I don't know if I agree with that, either.  I think most people are (in actions, not words) just as insular as they've always been, it's just applied differently (Most people have larger circles that encompass more of humanity)

I hate you now.  Not everyone is an insulist.  Any way, that was a stupid argument, the gene thing.  It is, evolutionarily speaking, unsound.  A lot of racism against, say, African Americans, was made as justification for slavery.   Old Bob Slavetrader say:  "Hey, they've been livin' thar fer ages an' ha'ent got any o' our fancy doodads, they must not be as good as us!"  The flaw in that is that environment has a huge impact on technological development. 

It's not the direct cause of it racism, but know that racism is not natural; it is rejection of genes that have proved successful in another area.

Which one of us are you hating?

The slave-trade was also in large part made possible by the Africans themselves, who captured and sold defeated enemies to the slave-traders. In exchange for fancy western doodads--like liquor and guns.

And it was eventually done away with, again in large part by the Africans themselves, where neighboring states rose against those kingdoms, and did away with them.

It existed in America for so long because there existed a stable population of hereditary slaves there, already (so we didn't need an influx of new Africans), and because of the economical motivation.

We also had a big "justification" for the attitude you mentioned, since the Native Indians--while making particularly poor slaves (we (America) tried, they (quite a few of my relatives) died)--provided an excellent example of a "savage" for people inclined to racism to steriotype. 

And again, the neighboring states--in this case the North--rose against the slavers, and did away with the practice (not that slavery was the only cause for the Civil War). 

And no, not everyone is an insulist, and that situation is also improving. Again, from a result of exposure, and from economical motivation.

[LegoLord]

Granite.  Seriously, that last comment was practically racism against everyone.

[madrain]

Old Bob Slavetrader say:  "Hey, they've been livin' thar fer ages an' ha'ent got any o' our fancy doodads, they must not be as good as us!"

I find it quite funny that you use dialect in your dialogue example, probably not even aware of how prejudiced that makes you seem.

Anyways, I suggest everyone take a step back from accusing others of being racist, having 'liberal' agendas (whatever that means), or whatever.  This is a suggestions forum for a fantasy videogame.

[Granite26]

Liberal Claptrap (which is what I actually said) is defined, in this case, as : Spouting Blank Slate and Noble Savage beliefs as if it were a fact of religious truth that cannot be questioned.  Anyone who does question them, through mere doubt or opposing scientific facts, is espousing prejudiced viewpoints and is worthy of personal hatred and attacks.

I thnk that's a pretty good definition of what was going on, snide comments on your part or no.

[praguepride]

this is why politics + internet is almost as bad as breaching a magma pipe...almost. The fires never die out

Anyway, I think we can pull a few nuggets out of that conflict. Namely: species preferences.

I would say that all creatures have a natural tendancy to vote for their own species. You can see it along racial lines in democratic elections, but I'd imagine that species would be even stronger. That's not to say a particularly gifted human could never be elected mayor, but it would make it very very very difficult for the lone humie in a fortress of dwarves to be elected to anything, except maybe Chief Testor of the Magma/Carp Chamber.