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Author Topic: Concept for an unorthodox game  (Read 2300 times)

Kagus

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Concept for an unorthodox game
« on: March 08, 2009, 04:10:24 pm »

An idea popped into my head recently about a game that lies a bit between being an RTS and an RPG.  No, not one of those combo-fusion ordeals that usually end up being dreadful.  This is just something unto itself.

Each map would be a fully (or as close as possible) living location, with full population (I'm thinking medieval fantasy for this, so there would be large trade cities and rural towns populated by peasants, merchants, guards, petty thieves and the like).

Anyways, the denizens of these maps would automatically be created as a sort of resource.  They would always be present on the map (except under special circumstances), in numbers and types determined by the location.

When a game starts, you choose your character.  The ones I've thought up so far are Demonologist, Priest, and Rogue.  A fourth alternative would be a Necromancer, but I don't know how to handle that so that it doesn't clash with the Demonologist's "character type", and it's possible to incorporate Necromantic abilities into the Demonologist.

The game starts out with each player controlling only their character.  Start locations would probably best be random to some extent, to add to the chaos and uncertainty.

Here's how it works:  You're trying to kill the other players (or something).  Pretty standard setup, right?

Well, each character has their own ways of doing that, and their own abilities to remain unnoticed by the other players.  The players need to manipulate their environment as best as they can in order to gain an advantage.

Demonologists need various books and materials, as well as an out-of-the-way location in order to conduct foul rituals and summon demons to aid him.  This could mean just obtaining a service or boon from some infernal lord, or it could be the more standard calling forth of demonic minions.

Due to the rather unsavory nature of his works, a person exposed as a Demonologist would be hunted down by the city guards and shunned by the general populace.  This would provide an incentive for keeping all his works on the down-low so that he doesn't get noticed.  So, given the opportunity to imbue yourself with demonic strength or summon a minor demon to follow you, you may opt for the strength as it is more difficult to notice than a gibbering being tagging along at your side.  Demonologists have a certain amount of talent for keeping themselves hidden, as a necessity of survival.

Although the common populace would most likely abhor the doings of a Demonologist, there's no saying that certain individuals wouldn't be inclined to come under your tutelage and become a servant to help you with attaining materials or performing rituals. 

So the Demonologist is alright at staying hidden, and can potentially get a few followers as well.  Mostly, however, he just needs peace and quiet to work his magic.  If he can find an abandoned house to set up a ritual circle and make a few pacts, he's doing just fine.


Next up is the Priest.  A man of the people, the Priest is highly charismatic and is in good standing with the guards.  He is also capable of giving rousing sermons to the populace in order to get them to aid his cause.  He has nothing to fear from the public, and indeed quite a lot to gain.

The Priest is basically a politician.  Preach to people, get a following, collect some gold, and instill a fervor in your faithful in order to get a mob to attack those you proclaim as heretics.  Also, stay close to guards, as they'll be doing their job by protecting you.  That's to your benefit, by the way.

The Priest is very high-profile, as getting noticed is how he gets followers.  Also, sermons cause people to stop what they're doing and gather around to hear what the fuss is about.  Very noticeable.  Don't expect to stay out of sight of your opponents, just expect to have more men than they do.


Last on the list is the Rogue.  A loner, the Rogue is of course the expert at not being noticed and getting what he wants, even if nobody wants to give it to him.

The Rogue can steal from the general inhabitants in order to get a little gold or some items to help him, but his greatest ability is his knack for not getting noticed, combined with the movement possibilities opened up by his acrobatic strengths.

He'll need to either sabotage or assassinate his enemies in order to get rid of them, and this can be difficult if they have protection, since the Rogue really isn't that much of a fighter.  He relies on getting the upper hand through surprise and stealth, and perhaps a little trickery.

A very low-profile character, the Rogue needs to keep out of the limelight in order to get his job done.  However, he is very good at blending in with both the crowd and the shadows, and he can get places the others can't (or at least get there faster).  Being a loner, he has no use for followers, and probably wouldn't be able to convince anyone even if he tried.


So there you have it.  Three different playstyles trying to gain power in the city (or town) by using the environment as their greatest resource.  The NPC's are always controlled by the AI, although your character can give commands, so you can control them indirectly.

The biggest thing here is just keeping out of the way of your opponents until you're ready to try and find them.  Even the Priest should try to stay relatively low-profile until he's got a nice little fanbase to protect him.  Because of the chaotic city environment (and lack of standard game features such as character-indicating rings or clothes made from BLARING COLORS, as well as a unit-marking minimap) and the random position, you would never be entirely sure where your opponent was until you were staring them in the face.  And if they left, you'd be just as unsure as before. 

It would be possible to figure out the general area of a person by looking for signs of their having been there.  The only thing that comes to mind now would be stumbling across a Demonologist's ritual circle in a building somewhere.  It might be an old hideout that was discovered by the guards, causing the Demonologist to flee, or it could be the current place of operations for the Demonologist and he just happens to be out shopping or scouting around.


This seems more RPG than RTS, but both the Demonologist and the Priest need to handle resources to some extent, and both have the ability to gather together followers.

No character leveling or XP would be involved, as I've yet to see a system for that which really seems to fit in.  Instead, your relative strength would be based entirely on what materials you could pull together and how you choose to use them.  The characters are innately just as powerful when they first start out as when they crush all opposition.  A late-game Demonologist is just as strong (weak) as an early-game Demonologist, and can do just as many things.  However, the late-game Demonologist probably has collected lots of secret books and ingredients with which to cast his spells, as well as numerous demonic minions and several infernal bonuses bound to his body and soul.  A Priest is just the same as any other Priest, but the followers of one Priest may be far greater in number and faith than the other's.  A Rogue...  Well, equipment.  You'll never know how much use rope can be until you don't have any left.


Any comments?  Would anyone here be interested in a game like this?  And if there already exists a game like this that I'm somehow not aware of, please inform me as I know that I'd damn sure like to play it.

Ampersand

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 04:14:49 pm »

Should check out Majesty.
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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 04:24:48 pm »

With the use of drawing skills and a little game design,this certainly could become a forum game,in fact,I'd be happy to help design it.
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Neonivek

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2009, 04:29:24 pm »

Should check out Majesty.

Actually this sounds a lot like a different game.

The Guild

Which I have the Sequel to... The Guild II... I kinda hated it.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2009, 04:34:35 pm »

Bah. The only thing I got is the QML text-based engine (which is a good text-based engine, but not really what everyone likes), and I could whip up FAKE AI but that really wouldn't do much. Nobody likes FAKE AI.

I think I prefer having two sides rather than three. Demonologist versus The Priest. The Priest got the power of popular support, the Demonologist got the power of...well...demons.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 04:39:16 pm by Servant Corps »
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woose1

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2009, 04:39:15 pm »

All rendered in ACII, of course.  :)

Lets see, you would need to design a set of 'Systems' for each character.
After that, make a random city generator.
After that, make an actual AI for the populace/and/or get a forumgoer to do it if it is only a forum RP game.

Rouge: Stealth, Poison
Priest: Charisma/Recruiting followers, Healing (Maybe not), general management of followers
Evil guy: Magic, Rituals, Poison (To a lesser extent), Charisma/Recruiting followers (Again, to a lesser extent)

Also you need a sort of 'Law' system, so going out and stabbing people is a no-no, you have to buy properties, getting items discreetly (For rouge and evil guy, although for the priest too, if the need calls).

Your actions and the AI's response should be dependant on your attitude towards the city, your charisma, and your awareness. (For instance, nobody would bat an eye if a well liked and low-profile priest were to go buy a weapon, buy they might be suspicious if a rouge does that.)

Just throwing ideas out there.

Also, I like the idea of a rouge. Variance in gameplay makes all the difference!
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Nilocy

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 04:49:17 pm »

Personally a Rogue wouldn't work if there was only one enemy, another Priest or demonologist. There has to be a minimum number of player characters for this to work out as you said. What if it became Priest(s) vs. Priest(s)? Would it turn the city into two halves of fanatics trying to duke it out for supremacy? Same goes for the demonologist. And then, what if it were only two Rogues? Sneaking around in shadows for ever trying to catch another shadow?

Its just a thought, but I very much like the idea. The RTS blend would be interesting if you can effect your environment aswell, like acctually changing the landscape to suite your tastes, Transforming a sewer to a gigantic dugeon or a house into a Temple or something?

But the rogue is a definate must for this game to work out as your thinking. Kudos to the original idea dude, very much liking to see where this'll head :D
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Servant Corps

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2009, 04:52:05 pm »

I don't see why a rogue is necessary. Rogue versus Rogue is an interesting idea, but in the end, Ithink a demonologist is needed more than a common theif. After all, the demonologist also has to hide and not get caught. And the demonologist isn't going to gain any ally at all.
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Mephisto

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2009, 04:55:39 pm »

This reminds me strongly of Riverworld, if you've read the book, seen the movie, or played the super rare game. You are a person from some point in Earth's timeline. To further the story (get back home, kill everyone else, I can't remember), you had to capture these giant mushroom-type things that dispense food. Once captured, all civilians in the area are yours. If they die, they get sent back to the mushroom.

It plays a lot better than my description.
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FoboslC

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2009, 05:49:40 pm »

Great idea, as for a RP forum game, as for the "game"
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Jreengus

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2009, 06:21:39 pm »

As a fourth class how about Captain of the Guard? This guy would be VERY high profile and completely unable to hide but on the other hand he has a ton of guards under his control, of course he can only send a small number out of the city so he would really be strongest on his home turf meaning that other characters could try to avoid him whilst building up a powerbase before they take him on proper.
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Kagus

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2009, 06:48:00 pm »

I was thinking more along the lines of an actual game, but if someone can think of a way to make it into a functioning (and enjoyable) forum game, be my guest.

The Rogue differs from the Priest and the Demonologist because the latter two classes need to build up a strong force, and attack their enemies indirectly by commanding that force (although the Demonologist can imbue himself with demonic powers, it's still rather difficult to take on a large crowd all by his lonesome, unless he decides to go all-out and take on some very revealing buffs, in which case he would be fighting an even bigger crowd by himself, since the whole city would be able to see him for what he was).  The Rogue gains power through self-improvement, and deals with his foes in a far more personal fashion than the others.  It's for those players who follow the "if you want a job done right, you have to do it yourself" philosophy.  Plus, it gives you greater versatility due to only needing to account for one person, the one you control directly.

As for lack of players, that is indeed one of the greater problems.  However, one thing is to make certain there is always one extra force in a conflict...  Namely, that of the city itself.

The location should play more of a role than a simple staging ground, it should be a force unto itself.  A Rogue-against-Rogue match could be fought out through a sleuth-style investigation, trying to use unusual purchases and behaviour recorded by the civilians in order to find out who his enemy is.  Then, once discovered, it's just a matter of placing a blade in that sweet spot.

That's the thing, unless you're exceptionally high-profile (such as a big fancy preacher, a hideously warped Demonologist or a black-clad "utility" Rogue), you shouldn't easily be able to tell the players apart from the crowd.  This is the greatest stealth afforded to players, not the medieval equivalent of a cloaking device seen in other games.

The city should be a living, breathing entity, providing resistance (or aid) to any player interacting with it.  Overeager preachers may encounter resistance either from the local church, or from a lord concerned by the zealous nature of the few fanatics who follow you (once you gain a following throughout a greater percentage of the city, it's perfectly fine to amp up the fervor by a few notches).  Demonologists and Rogues have to keep their dealings in secret, lest the city watch set up patrols to keep an eye out for suspicious happenings (or, if you're really unlucky, your face).

A Rogue vs. Rogue encounter could be as simple as balancing between your fight against the city (in order to gain strength through contacts and equipment), and the hunt for your rival.

Speaking of which, that's another thing that could make for a useful gameplay facet.  Paying someone (or simply telling them to, if you've got enough authority over them) to keep an eye out for a character you've previously identified.  You won't receive the sort of telepathic warning you'd get from a standard RTS, but they'd make sure to let you know should you ask (or if you feel it's urgent enough that you tell them to send a runner to you, but that has its own risks).

But I do realize the problems involved with a two-sided stealth-based conflict.  Two Rogues chasing each others' tails could quickly become tedious, and I don't know if it's possible to make an "alive" enough city to alleviate that.

This, however;
What if it became Priest(s) vs. Priest(s)? Would it turn the city into two halves of fanatics trying to duke it out for supremacy?
I see no problem with.

As for converting the various buildings, I'd rather it be more along the lines of just using the building for your own purposes.  It would of course be quite possible to rearrange some furniture and turn a modest home or storehouse into a workable chapel, but it would be much easier (and prettier) to simply take over the church that's already there and provide it to your own followers.

The Demonologist would probably have the strongest effect on his immediate working environment, drawing out profane circles and diagrams on the floor and warding runes on the walls and doors, as well as setting up candles wherever necessary.  Sewers would probably work quite nicely, since very few people would bring themselves to go down there.  However, you do have to deal with the other ruffians who are down there, as well as the rat-catchers.  Plus, if you knew you were fighting a Demonologist, wouldn't that be the first place you'd look?

And Demonologists, like I said, are indeed capable of gaining followers (it's quite handy having someone you can send out to get basic supplies while you busy yourself with other matters).  You just have to talk to the right people.

I'd rather the Priest remained non-magical, relying entirely on the faith and loyalty of his flock for power and protection.  Not only is this a much-underused aspect of priestly characters in videogames, it also appeals to my cynical sense of humor.

It could work, of course.  But if he is allowed certain powers, they should only be awarded through the size and fervor of his congregation.  You shouldn't be able to gain anything that you can't somehow lose.


Rogues aren't strictly necessary, but I don't know of any other third party that would fit it quite as well.


EDIT:  In regards to the Captain of the Guard, that would most likely be controlled by the city.  You can bribe, coerce or convince the Cap'n to see things your way, but I don't think you should be able to control him directly.  The Captain is wholly a part of the city, and should be treated as such.  The player characters should be things that are less directly associated with the city.

And anyways, the high-profile army leader is already covered by the Priest (at least the late-game Priest, once he's influential enough to control the government and, by proxy, the guard).  The similarities wouldn't justify an extra class.  Perhaps an alternative, but not an additive.

beorn080

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2009, 07:00:08 pm »

Rogues would automatically be able to beat priests, priests could probably stomp demonologists, and demonologists might be able to deal with a rogue if they can lure the rogue out. The reason is basic abilities. A good rogue would pretend to be one of the faithful to the priest, rig a distraction, stab the priest, and then kill the guy next to him for killing the priest. The priest, when fighting a demonologist, would be able to command pretty much every person in the city to attack such an an evil foe, and the demonologist would presumably have demons that can track a rogue without being seen.

I must ask, how would one determine who is a player, and who is an NPC, and why are the players inherently hostile to each other.
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Kagus

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2009, 07:09:13 pm »

Determining who is a player and who is an NPC is your own problem.  Although there should be similar "subtypes" of these player characters roaming around the city (pickpockets, minor cult leaders, and common folk who dabble with demons), but the player characters should be good enough at what they do to be distinguishable from the commoners if you see them doing it.

As for being inherently hostile to each other, that's just a matter of wanting to win the game (can't be arsed to think up a backstory).  If you meant why the player characters are innately hostile to each other, well...

They aren't.  That's just it, you don't know who's who.  If you did, that'd ruin the "hide a tree in a forest" stealth of blending into a crowd.  You have to somehow uncover an enemy character before you can get to the business of taking them out.  But even then, that's just that one face (which might be changed by disguises or foul magic).

Nilocy

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Re: Concept for an unorthodox game
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2009, 07:27:18 pm »

A thought just cross my mind when i read about the captain of the gaurd stuff. Maybe his loyalties should swing between the priest and the demonologist seperately. Sliding bar mecahnic maybe? The more stuff you do for him, the more likely he'll help you. The demonologist and the priest could do 'quests' for him per se, like routing out a bunch of ruffians, or fixing some walls or something? But heres the interesting thing, as a rogue you'll be able to contact him for advice on where your targets are, say if he was liking the priest more than the demonologist, he would tell you quite crediable rumours about where the Demonologist was? And vice a versa?

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