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[LegoLord]

There's no way anyone sane would ever try something that stupid. You're just gonna end up starving to death in the wilderness. The average person would only ever try if they were desperate, IE refugees. _{Or perverts}

Not really.  How many foreign immigrants come into America a day?  How many go into other countries like those in Europe?  How often did it happen a hundred years ago? Two hundred?  A thousand?

For those first few, I can tell you:  A hell of a lot.

If your fortress is wealthier than a nearby human civ or town (and things are bad enough there), you should be able to get some human migrants.

Also, how on earth do you get a place so full of cold-hearted SOBs that everyone would just sit by and watch as a human sat outside the walls, suffering and starving?  You may be selfish and paranoid, but not everyone is.

[Pilsu]

Real life comparisons don't really work when it comes to communal settlements of other species. You can expect the entry criteria to be prohibitive at best, especially considering the kind of havoc a single lever pull can wreak

Considering the time period, I can easily picture the guy starving to death over a decision to make an uncertain trek to a mountain fortress he has no business being in


Guess I could see it happening but I'd expect an option to either set up a ghetto equivalent for the leeches or flat out tell them to take their 3 kids and one eyed wife and get lost. I still think it should take more than "my house sucks" for them to make a trek to a glacier fort half the world away

[LegoLord]

Humans may not be dwarves, but they look a lot like them.  Seeing one dieing of hunger and thirst (which is not pretty, let me tell you) would probably move at least some dwarves to let him in.  Again, you are going with the automatic racism argument, based off of nature, I would assume.  Of course, in nature, there are plenty of creatures that have symbiotic relations with other species.  Cows and humans, for example.  We keep the cow race going, and they make amino acids that our bodies are incapable of producing.  Obviously there wouldn't be this whole eating each other thing with civs mixing, but the possibility for some positive benefit is one thing that would not always be passed up.

And I wasn't just saying "their house sucks, they will move"  I was saying "their house sucks, things are terrible all around their hometown and other towns in their civ, and then there's news of that really rich dwarven fortress so they might decide to give it a shot."  And for that matter, what business do dwarven migrants have in coming to a new dwarven fort?  They have a nice home elsewhere; why don't they stay there?

[Footkerchief]

Humans may not be dwarves, but they look a lot like them.  Seeing one dieing of hunger and thirst (which is not pretty, let me tell you) would probably move at least some dwarves to let him in. 

Pilsu just agreed that he could this happening.  I can't tell if you're just agreeing back or what.

[LegoLord]

Sort of agreeing, but I don't like this idea of restricting it to ghettos for the humans.  Especially if they do well; they should be able to get nice rooms just like a Legendary dwarf.

[Pilsu]

I was thinking more on the lines of segregation. Perhaps your dwarves unconditionally accept sentients just for showing up but I'd prefer if mine didn't want to mingle with them. I'm more fond of the crapsack worlds, fantastic racism and all

As always, it's an ethics question and should probably be reflected by the raws but we'd need gameplay features to accompany it or it turns into a binary matter. Ethics differences should probably play a role, for instance seeing elves migrate into your fort without having relinquished their hippie ways would be ridiculous

[zchris13]

Roll out the RNG at the beginning, and set a racism variable for each civ.  Totally.

[LegoLord]

Roll out the RNG at the beginning, and set a racism variable for each civ.  Totally.

That seems a bit restrictive on the player.

[praguepride]

I like the idea of racism being a part of the personalities. If you get a stronghold full of racist dwarves, I could see them setting up ghettos for the "inferior" races.

[NikkTheTrick]

Roll out the RNG at the beginning, and set a racism variable for each civ.  Totally.

That seems a bit restrictive on the player.

Not if it can later be modified by events happening in fortress:

- Succesful trades cause your dwarves to be less racist in general and more friendly towards that particular race.
- Losses in wars against a given race would cause your dwarves to be more racist towadst them and more xenophobic in general, the effect being extreme for dwarves closely related to causalty.

A husband being killed by humans would cause a dwarf who was very open-minded and friendly towards humans to now crave their blood more that the worst rendeck you had! And she will hate elves, too, just for looking like humans. And she will not care that those were human bandits, she will hate all human civilizations.

[LegoLord]

A husband being killed by humans would cause a dwarf who was very open-minded and friendly towards humans to now crave their blood more that the worst rendeck you had! And she will hate elves, too, just for looking like humans. And she will not care that those were human bandits, she will hate all human civilizations.

That's a bit extreme.  That would probably only happen if the dwarf wasn't open-minded in most situations, but didn't start out racist.

[NikkTheTrick]

That's a bit extreme.  That would probably only happen if the dwarf wasn't open-minded in most situations, but didn't start out racist.

Keep in mind that the proposed reaction is specific to one dwarf out of the whole fortress. I don't know how familial ties work in Dwarf societies, but for a society where family is everything, death of a husband is the only thing that would matter, open-mindness be damned!

[LegoLord]

That's a bit extreme.  That would probably only happen if the dwarf wasn't open-minded in most situations, but didn't start out racist.

Keep in mind that the proposed reaction is specific to one dwarf out of the whole fortress. I don't know how familial ties work in Dwarf societies, but for a society where family is everything, death of a husband is the only thing that would matter, open-mindness be damned!

But it wouldn't result in racism if they were more open-minded.  A need for revenge against that particular human, yes, but not a vendetta against the whole race.

[Sinergistic]

Looking at this:

C) Non-dwarven immigrants (maybe a human woodsman or an elven archer)

It's a dwarven fort, you have to be a moron to expect them to just let you waltz in when you show up

Refugees, sure

Tells me you never want non-refugee, non-dwarf migrants to even be possible, which is unfair.

Oh shut up, man. praguepride was implying that there would be strings attached. Don't get your shirt in a such a twist. You're just being an ass.

[LegoLord]

Looking at this:

C) Non-dwarven immigrants (maybe a human woodsman or an elven archer)

It's a dwarven fort, you have to be a moron to expect them to just let you waltz in when you show up

Refugees, sure

Tells me you never want non-refugee, non-dwarf migrants to even be possible, which is unfair.

Oh shut up, man. praguepride was implying that there would be strings attached. Don't get your shirt in a such a twist. You're just being an ass.

You may want to look more closely at those quotes.  Specifically, who said what.  Also, way past that point in this discussion, which you would know if you actually read this whole thread.  People don't like it when people post without reading the thread.