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[Neonivek]

Mailshirt is rather vague

Is it refering to the Chain Shirt or for lack of a better word "Chainmail"?

[Squirrelloid]

Mailshirt is rather vague

Is it refering to the Chain Shirt or for lack of a better word "Chainmail"?

Chainmail is redundant, because mail (from maille, french) means chain.

Chain chain is repetative.

Its a mail shirt.

[Granite26]

so are RPG Games, ATM Machines, and SAT tests... it's common usage not some technical term  Are we REALLY having this discussion again?

[Neonivek]

Chainmail isn't all that redundant when you add in that there are many types of mail... Or else you have to call it a Mailmail or risk confusing people when you simply say Maille.

FORGETTING THAT... Lets stop the arguement based off that... we REALLY don't need another.

Your still being vague... but Ill assume you mean the Light Armor Chain Shirt and not the Heavy Armor version

[Mel_Vixen]

The trabi was a car made in the GDR.

And the Rapier was a invention of the early 16 century so i would like to say talhover hasnt had them .

The "Rapier" is most likely a "grosses Messer" a better picture. Its a onehand sword with only one edge because during this time double edged swords were here forbiden for the comon man.

By the way a complete version of the last Talhoffer is found here. Its in color too. If you go through it you will see that clubs, daggers, Messer, Swords and Spears are shown for the unarmored fighter.
 

[Neonivek]

Rapier, like many weapons of the Medieval period, are in fact many weapons. (often due to a lack of formalised definitions)

The Foil, the Epee, and the Sabre are all rapiers. There are more Rapiers and sometimes the Definitions became loose enough to include certain kinds of Elongated Daggers and a type of sword I can only describe as Triangular.

[Mel_Vixen]

Right so far Neonivek but Talhoffer himself names the used weapons "Messer".

Oh and i did forgot i think the descibtions of a teacher and may it be the teacher of the nobles (cause that almost the only longer text sources) are for me more relieable then the work of a "Artist" who gets everything second and third hand.

[Squirrelloid]

@Heph et al.:
By rapier I suppose I meant 'dueling sword of some sort'.  Looking at the earlier edition I see what is clearly a rather large blade being used similarly.  Of course, I have a print of a combat manual which depicts techniques for such a weapon as used in dueling.

Ultimately, I suppose my point is that warfare was not the only instance of personal combat in the time period.  And study of technique would be far more useful in less... crowded... arenas than it would on the field of battle.  The evidence of unarmored combat does not necessarily suggest many or even most people went to war that way.

Your still being vague... but Ill assume you mean the Light Armor Chain Shirt and not the Heavy Armor version

Wait, huh?  Would you like to cite a scholarly source for that distinction?

I mean, yes, I know roleplaying games make a lot of armor distinctions, but those are often based on fabrication or misinformation.  For example, D+D continues to use 'platemail' for full or field plate and 'half plate' for plate.  It also multiplies what was originally just maille into multiple armor types, such as Chainmail shirt, Chainmail, Scale Mail, Banded Mail.  One must assume that 'Chainmail' means a chain shirt plus chain leggings and a helmet of some sort.  One must also assume that they can't be bothered to learn that scale and banded mail are fabrications of historical buffs from misinterpretation of artistic works - something that has been well known for at least 20 years.

I have never even heard of a distinction between 'light' and 'heavy' maille.

[Neonivek]

Heph I was making a statement against the "Rapiers are a 16th century invention" statement.

I have never even heard of a distinction between 'light' and 'heavy' maille

For the most part... the Layers. Light Maille is 1 layer.

Heavy Maille is Thick multilayered armor.

[Squirrelloid]

Heph I was making a statement against the "Rapiers are a 16th century invention" statement.

I have never even heard of a distinction between 'light' and 'heavy' maille

For the most part... the Layers. Light Maille is 1 layer.

Heavy Maille is Thick multilayered armor.

When was it ever used? 

I mean, you always wear cloth padding under maille, which may well qualify as armor in its own right.  So i'm going to assume you mean multiple layers of maille.

[Mel_Vixen]

The real problem is that the most sources arent freely avaibable There are some greedy universitys and companies (i am looking at you Academy of european Medieval martial arts (aemma)) which want money for looking at stuff which should by all means freely avaibable.

Other institutes like the Bavarian State Archive are to stupid or lazy to digitalisize the papers for the interrested.

edit: Neon on the rapiers i citated wikipedia because i didnt want to read another bunch of books on them.

I think Neonivek means a padding (gambeson) -> Chain -> Plate layering

[irmo]

Oh, for the love of God.

Can you have your dicksize war over who has read the most authentic Renaissance self-defense manuals somewhere else, please?

[Squirrelloid]

The real problem is that the most sources arent freely avaibable There are some greedy universitys and companies (i am looking at you Academy of european Medieval martial arts (aemma)) which want money for looking at stuff which should by all means freely avaibable.

Other institutes like the Bavarian State Archive are to stupid or lazy to digitalisize the papers for the interrested.

Word.

I think Neonivek means a padding (gambeson) -> Chain -> Plate layering

Well, since as far as I can tell no one wore chain without padding, I would assume wearing a chain shirt would imply padding, but not plate.  (In addition to the historical evidence, just think about wearing chain without any protective padding underneath.  The chaffing, it burns.)

[Neonivek]

I can't find any good info on Rapiers before the 15th century. If they existed it was before they were popularised in the 1600s and on.

Edit Addition: AHHH here is one... The Sabre is a 10th century weapon. The Espada Ropera (Spanish Rapier/Dress sword) developed within the 1400s barely.

Anyhow a Single layer of small chain is lighter and more manuverable then Leather... Though I doubt it would offer much protection. So I doubt it was seriously used (despite Videogames presenting it as supperior to Leather)

[praguepride]

Maybe Krav Maga isn't scary to you, but I've met the people who practice it.

Scary!