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[Neonivek]

My issue with Hamstring... is hitting it while facing an opponent is like stabing a mole on someone's back while facing them.

Shield Bash PROBABLY shouldn't be its own move... it probably should be you quite litterally hitting the opponent with your shield.

[Iden]

Styles & Stances

Fighting Styles & Stances, by all means, are simply an abstraction. It seems to me that a few people here are wanting to see stances or fighting styles implemented, which is a concrete application of that which is abstract. Let me explain.

We already have a skills system set up. You learn sword skill as you train in it and use it. So what is sword skill? Your skill with using a sword, obviously, but it also entails combat training. You would learn to parry, riposte, how to move, how to stand, how to position your weapon, where you can throw strikes from, how to use your weapon to your advantage, how to deal with armored opponents, how to deal with shielded opponents, and even how to fight against other sorts of weapons.

How you stand when you're fighting is part of training. You can change your position and how you're standing, how you hold your weapon, which dictates what kind of attacks you might try. It's all apart of learning how to fight and how to fight against different opponents. Using one pattern of attack every time you attack will be quickly learned by your enemy, and you will be overcome. In fast-paced hectic combat, styles, stances, and even plans in general sometimes go awry and cease to matter while you're trying to survive. Hence you learn to fight, not any one specific style or stance. You learn to use your weapon as best you can, any way that you can, if you are to become skilled in that weapon.

Styles and Stances, in the DF system, really have no place at all. As you learn to use your weapon, and your skill improves, it reflects improvements on your technique with that weapon, as well as your style, stance, defense, offense, etc.

As far as martial arts go - that's a different kind of fighting. Normal western warfare -- Heavy Armored Combat and Eastern Martial Arts combat were terribly dissimilar.

A "sap" used to knock somebody unconscious, primarily for adventure mode might not be a terrible idea. You can attempt it through the "wrestle" menu maybe? IDK - just an idea. Or perhaps like I suggested with my version of the "Backstab theory" -- When stealthing/ambushing with a club, you gain a chance to knock a target out. If you're really lucky, you'll break their skull! Though you'd likely want a club or a slapjack of sorts to do such while "sneaking" in ambush mode, otherwise it probably wouldn't work out well. Normal weapons should just do normal bonus' (whatever they are) you get when ambushing. Bashing weapons should have a chance to knock out when ambushing?

[Neonivek]

Hence you learn to fight, not any one specific style or stance. You learn to use your weapon as best you can, any way that you can, if you are to become skilled in that weapon

Uhhh... I am going to disagree.

While it may not be a flowery Drunken style stance... Foot possitions are VITAL. Someone in Platemail who doesn't know how to move around in it... is useless.

What is REALLY happening is you practice soo much that the stances and style become second nature.

Mind you... this is only for the people who actually train. There are plenty of books on how to fight in Europe and they do include footwork and stances. (Heck just check out Fencing!)

Normal western warfare -- Heavy Armored Combat and Eastern Martial Arts combat were terribly dissimilar

Alright there are two problems here

1) Heavy Armored combat wasn't all that common... It was EXPENCIVE to field a squad of Dismounted knights (and more for them to be mounted)

and

2) dying with one strike... and often being unable to kill your opponent with your weapon... would change how the martial art functioned.

This is starting to smell fishy...

"Bashing weapons should have a chance to knock out when ambushing?"

No, lets not do any magical effects with mundane weapons here. If the Blunt weapon happens to knock someone out instead of killing them... Then good!

However lets not give it a bonus for no reason. Being struck in the head with a Warhammer, your dead.

To knock them out you would have to do so intentionally attempting to do as little damage as possible. So knocking someone out with an obviously deadly weapon should be intentional rather then as a side-effect of an unrelated skill.

[Mel_Vixen]

Aikido is not only winning a fight. Its like Morihei Ueshiba once said "True Budo is not only to destroy your enemy, its much better to defeat you enemy mentaly in a way that he gladly gives up his attack".

Many technics of Aikido deal with ways to defeat (and disarm) a enemy without harming him/her if possible.

To come back to DF i think this can be one of the Points of DF martial arts. Defeating a enemy without doing any harm in situations like barfights or using knowledge about the body to do special things like knocking out by a strike on the solar plexus. DF martial arts could tell you where and how to strike/kick/lever/throw to get a certain effect for a given fight-situation.

[Footkerchief]

We already have a skills system set up. You learn sword skill as you train in it and use it. So what is sword skill? Your skill with using a sword, obviously, but it also entails combat training. You would learn to parry, riposte, how to move, how to stand, how to position your weapon, where you can throw strikes from, how to use your weapon to your advantage, how to deal with armored opponents, how to deal with shielded opponents, and even how to fight against other sorts of weapons.

How you stand when you're fighting is part of training. You can change your position and how you're standing, how you hold your weapon, which dictates what kind of attacks you might try. It's all apart of learning how to fight and how to fight against different opponents. Using one pattern of attack every time you attack will be quickly learned by your enemy, and you will be overcome. In fast-paced hectic combat, styles, stances, and even plans in general sometimes go awry and cease to matter while you're trying to survive. Hence you learn to fight, not any one specific style or stance. You learn to use your weapon as best you can, any way that you can, if you are to become skilled in that weapon.

Styles and Stances, in the DF system, really have no place at all. As you learn to use your weapon, and your skill improves, it reflects improvements on your technique with that weapon, as well as your style, stance, defense, offense, etc.

I have to disagree here.  While the weapon skill does reflect a proficiency with all aspects of the weapon's use, it is entirely possible to be proficient with a weapon without having explored every possible technique.  Even masters can learn from each other.

[Neonivek]

Well at its heart... Martial arts is really just a fighting style.

There can be more advanced kinds but any civilisation with some knowledge on how specific possitions actually improve fighting performance should have some form of it. (Which isn't all THAT complex judging by the cultures who have developed martial arts. So even Kobolds could, within reason, have it). Though it doesn't need a formal name, in fact it could be considered by that Civilisation to simply be the efficiant way to use that weapon.

it is entirely possible to be proficient with a weapon without having explored every possible technique.

Id have to agree with you. In fact a proverb comes to mind (The jist) "Fear not the man who practiced a million techniques once. Fear the man who has practiced one a million times." Someone who knows a lot of techniques would easily fall to someone who can actually execute even just one of them well.

[Mel_Vixen]

[...]
 

Normal western warfare -- Heavy Armored Combat and Eastern Martial Arts combat were terribly dissimilar

  Alright there are two problems here
 
  1) Heavy Armored combat wasn't all that common... It was EXPENCIVE to field a squad of Dismounted knights (and more for them to be mounted)
 
  and
 
  2) dying with one strike... and often being unable to kill your opponent with your weapon... would change how the martial art functioned.
  [...]
 

 I see a third problem.
 
Many people dont acknowledge that Europe had Martial arts in the past. Especally armed Martial arts were widespread. To name are the German- and basing on that the French-, the Spain- and the Italian- fence-school (Fence from German "fechten" or "gefecht" which meant any kind of fight not only swordsplay) . They included also many secondary styles like the "half-sword" style which dealed with heavy armor fights.
 
These styles have many similiaritys to eastern martial arts as far as i can tell from my experience of "Aikido", "Aikiken" and "German Fence school"

There are differences sure cause a European sword had, in comparsion to a Katana which is also a "Sword", totally different characteristics  f.e a useable crossguard. By this the styles of usage change - for example i would never block with a Katana in the same way way i block with a european sword because a medieval Katana is more likely to shatter at the edge. Speaking of edges the european sword has 2 (Long and short edge) while the Katana mostly only had 1 sharp edge and blunt "back".

[Neonivek]

Goodness, your not even breaking the Surface Heph.

It is part of this whole "Asians > Europe" myth that invades the internet. (It is much more complex then that... but basically it really just adds up to it)

Let us not forget some Self defense styles in Europe based off of Cains (I think it is french) and Umbrellas (which Japan SORTA also had... but also sorta didn't).

Also despite myths that Asians own the exclusive rights Dual Weilding was also in Europe. (Though mind you... most Asian Duel Weilding styles I believe are from outside Japan... I REALLY gotta watch more Discovery)

[Mel_Vixen]

I know but i didnt want to go more in deep because we had this already on the other, more developed, fight-system thread.

[Neonivek]

I know but i didnt want to go more in deep because we had this already on the other, more developed, fight-system thread.

Yeah maybe we could get this back on track (though I thought turning it into a combat mechanics thread wouldn't be so bad...)

Hmm I guess I SHOULD think of Warcraft abilities that could make it into the game... The problem is that Dwarf Fortress is really a simulator and WoW is just a number counter. A Fireball in Dwarf Fortress is much more significant then in World of Warcraft. Along with this some of the aspects of World of Warcraft are VERY stupid... Fighters do moves with Anger?

[Mel_Vixen]

Anger is a good point. The body, if wounded in a fightsituation, reacts different then if it gets wounded in a peacefull situation. The notion of pain is lowered by a certain amount if it is not entirely shut off. This goes so far that some people experience a kind Trance while fighting.

Similiar things can be observed in other danger situations. I did read of effects where the Brain stoped the notion of color to have more energy for reactions. This happend once to myself as i were nearly run over by a car.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I kind of disagree that Western and Eastern martial arts were all *that* dissimilar. After all, people tend to assume they were very different because real Western martial arts (other than boxing/wrestling) were mostly forgotten about, with the advent of the gun, if not long before.

And Western and Eastern martial arts both had their origin in the Greek Pankration, so, considering that there's only a finite amount of ways the human body can move, that only a portion of those ways would be useful in a given fight-and that only a portion of *those* would be taught in a specific style of fighting-it's hard to convince me that, in practice, they were all that exotic from one another, when actually used in life and death battle.

Certainly there were cultural differences, and differences in weapons/armour/tactics affected both, but I suspect the farthest and most bizarre divisions between the two took a long time to happen, possibly until well after 1400AD.

I could be wrong about points, but I've seen a lot of historical evidence that atleast supports the suspicion.

[Mel_Vixen]

I am sure that you are wrong that all bases on the Greek Pankration because of how the human race did spread. I rather think that it was more like a paralel evolution/development with very similiar endings and philosphys. It doesnt matter much anyway for our current theme or does it?

Well there are fencebooks form around 1300-1700 to which i have some links (german and English (Latin and Old-german would help sometimes too)). If you want to compare them i can give you the links. Apart from fighting by the way they have also sometimes parts about herbs and healing which was iirc one of your interrests  SirHoneyBadger.

[Fossaman]

Hm. The idea of anger makes me wonder if Toady could add in fight or flight hormones and responses. That would be pretty darn cool.

[Neonivek]

Anger is a good point. The body, if wounded in a fightsituation, reacts different then if it gets wounded in a peacefull situation.

It is more how the mechanic works overall that makes it rather stupid.

The idea of anger makes me wonder if Toady could add in fight or flight hormones and responses. That would be pretty darn cool.

He has two: The Beserk and Martial Stance. Which are basically extreme powerups. (I mean extreme... It can turn hopeless enemies into serious killers)