Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Capntastic]

Simply put; why have videogame styled abstractions of things Toady's working so hard to model in a semi-realistic manner?

[Tormy]

Iden, I wasn't talking about special abilities for the dwarves, I was looking at this from a "global" perspective. Each and every creature should be very different in regard to special abilities. So for example: Trolls should have a "cleave" ability, but a kobolds shouldn't.
Kobolds should have an "evasion" ability, but trolls shouldn't etc. etc.
Also, it makes no sense when you write something like "Impossible in real combat". [In regard to your cleave/whirlwind sentences..]
We are talking about fantasy creatures here, and this is a fantasy strategy game. So I don't see any problems with trolls using a cleave type attack for example.

Here's an idea: Give the creatures different physical statistics and behavior and let those play out by themselves during the course of the game, using a realistic combat system.

Which is what DF is already going towards in the first place.

None of this ad-hoc WoW special move stuff.

That said, your emphasis on disparate creature sizes is interesting and could probably be applied to existing combat mechanics in interesting ways.

Yeah, I guess this is the way to go in DF. I won't edit my OP, it would be pointless, I was just playing around with these ideas. Now that I read the replies in this topic.... I must agree with you. These kind of special abilities wouldn't work well in this game, IF they would get implemented like in WoW.
However special abilities linked to physical attributes could work perfectly.

[Aquillion]

Actually...

While I don't agree with the original post's method of doing it, I think it might make sense to have different sword techniques or martial arts schools or whatever.  These would generally be represented by bonuses and disadvantages to certain purely physical actions that people could perform anyway (a quick cut to the legs, a stab to the eyes) -- they could then have 'special techniques' that would be be 'macros' for a combo of attacks, often, which the practitioners of that technique specifically train in so they can pull them off faster and more effectively.  (Although, I suppose once magic is added their might also be supernatural combat techniques as well.)

But the important part is, this would allow people to specifically train in those purely physical techniques.  Right now you can only train in 'sword' or 'wrestling' or whatever -- which is absurdly general.  Instead, you could train in a specific sword stance based around parrying every attack, or in a wrestling technique focused on takedowns, or whatever, so different swordsmen or whatever would have different specialties.  Some fighting techniques would be better against certain kinds of opponents.

Of course these would be randomly generated and based on culture.  So you could have the Giant-Slaying Stance from the far north, which helps against larger creatures.

[Tormy]

Actually...

While I don't agree with the original post's method of doing it, I think it might make sense to have different sword techniques or martial arts schools or whatever.  These would generally be represented by bonuses and disadvantages to certain purely physical actions that people could perform anyway (a quick cut to the legs, a stab to the eyes) -- they could then have 'special techniques' that would be be 'macros' for a combo of attacks, often, which the practitioners of that technique specifically train in so they can pull them off faster and more effectively.  (Although, I suppose once magic is added their might also be supernatural combat techniques as well.)

Well yeah, I had this in mind when I've made this topic. Physical attribs linked to special attacks/abilities/etc. sounds fun AND realistic also. My example about the troll + it's cleave type attack is quite realistic for example. It's a huge and strong creature, and if it wields a huge weapon, it should be able to hit multiple oppoments in 1 swing. Agreed?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also yet another example is the whirlwind attack. Small/Medium sized creatures with very high agility should be able to perform attacks like that.
Etc.
I gotta admit -like I've said- that some of my examples wouldn't fit very well in the game [like Hamstring for example...well it could work, but it's really against the DF "design philosophy"]

[stoned funeral]

No need to give any of those moves "Special Ability" status. Hamstring? Why would you just abstract that as "-50% ms" and be done with it when you can actually hamstring your target? That's taking a brilliant combat system in the making and needlessly dumbing it down. All of the special abilities you're talking about can and should be broken down into their smallest distinct parts and allowed to 'just happen'. It's the DF philosophy for everything, so why make combat, one of DF's most ambitious aspects, stupid and nonsensical?

Honestly I dislike this idea, but I'd also be surprised if Toady actually decides to implement the kinds of skills you recommend--just don't see him throwing all his work in combat mechanics away.

[Granite26]

Hamstring is a really really REALLY bad example...

But!

Why not give abilities based on skill?  Not 'hamstring' the special effect, but 'Targeted shot' where, if you succeed your attack roll by X% or whatever, you specifically hit them in the solar plexus or cut their hamstring or (Anything else from a wrestling style menu)

Never underestimate the value of muscle memory.  Training to sidestep and slash the achilles tendon should make you better at doing that, regardless of it's effect on your fighting skill in general.  It should make you better at slashing for the eyes as well, but not as good at sidestepping and slashing that tendon...

For sure, someone with a crappy strength and small size won't have the reach or power to bat away a group of enemies at one swipe.  That ability should come with sufficient size (size difference, really)  That doesn't mean the glowing 'Whirlwind Attack' button with the 5 sec cooldown.  That just means if the Troll takes a horizontal swipe, there's a chance he hits more than one dwarf.

[Aquillion]

No need to give any of those moves "Special Ability" status. Hamstring? Why would you just abstract that as "-50% ms" and be done with it when you can actually hamstring your target? That's taking a brilliant combat system in the making and needlessly dumbing it down. All of the special abilities you're talking about can and should be broken down into their smallest distinct parts and allowed to 'just happen'. It's the DF philosophy for everything, so why make combat, one of DF's most ambitious aspects, stupid and nonsensical?

Honestly I dislike this idea, but I'd also be surprised if Toady actually decides to implement the kinds of skills you recommend--just don't see him throwing all his work in combat mechanics away.

The problem with letting them 'just happen' is that it's both dull and pretty unrealistic.  As it is right now, every single swordsman or wrestler fights in the exact same way, with the exact same options and capabilities.  In reality, there are people who focus on learning how to hamstring better, people who focus on how to get opponents into a hold without harming them, people who focus on learning how to break joints, and so on.

Fighting styles would be a good way to represent this.

[Granite26]

Aren't fighting styles just arbitrary collections of specific moves from a small number of starting stances?

[praguepride]

Somebody brought it up

DO NOT BRING MARTIAL ARTS INTO DF!!!!

Wrestling is about all the martial arts you need. Anything else just gets redundant and stupid. Just use your imagination and think that your Elite Champion Wrestler is a black belt in X and Y. Martial arts don't grant you super powers just because it's Kung Fu or Karate or anything.

[Tormy]

Aren't fighting styles just arbitrary collections of specific moves from a small number of starting stances?

Yeah something like that...anyway the problem is that it's not that simple. DF's game world is populated by fantasy creatures. You cannot implement a fighting style which will work perfectly, because of the huge differences [physical attributes & characteristics] between the various creatures. Like I've said, special abilties should be linked to these physical attributes. That is a good way to make it realistic, and perhaps it wouldn't be hard to implement at all, but I am not sure.

[Neonivek]

DO NOT BRING MARTIAL ARTS INTO DF!!!!

Sorry, it is in the Devs and has been commented upon by Toady himself. (What is included in Martial Arts is quite interesting. For example Magical Martial Arts). Civilisations will eventually have their own styles.

So unfortunately your going to eventually be hit with Martial arts perhaps around the Combat Arc... Ill have to check.

It isn't so much that these Special abilities are linked to special attributes. It is that they only become feasable when you have sufficiant attributes. It isn't feasable to try to rip someone's arm out of the socket unless you are sufficiantly strong.

Also we NEED a Sap system especially much further down the road when people can play criminals.

[praguepride]

NOoooooo! Oh well, it's not the worst thing to happen. It's just a pet peeve as most martial art systems are handled poorly in games.

"Oh, you know Kung Fu? Then you get +1 armor!"

And I'm thinking...WTF? Kung Fu >< Bulletproof vest. Media tricks you into thinking that martial arts contain secret magical hidden talents but really they all boil down to about the same. Some punch more, some kick more, some like Krav Maga are downright scary but in the end they all teach you about the same things. How to fight.

[Neonivek]

Media tricks you into thinking that martial arts contain secret magical hidden talents but really they all boil down to about the same. Some punch more, some kick more, some like Krav Maga are downright scary but in the end they all teach you about the same things. How to fight.

Not entirely true. If you look at some of the more flowery martial arts you realise that for some of them it is about showing it off to others. Some martial arts have PURELY astetic moves that are taught. Mind you, don't treat it too harshly...
-One thing that is often lost in Western Audiances is the use of Weapons in martial arts. It cannot be understated that weapon use in martial arts go hand in hand. Some people who put down Martial arts because of some of its odd movements don't realise that they were made to be used against people who had weapons... AND to be used with a weapon.
-The second thing is that Boxing is a martial art
-Krav Maga isn't all that scary... Women's Self Defense however Id put as much more scary. (Though some of the lost styles are scary too. There were a few "Kill based" hand-to-hand martial arts that were lost)

Along with this some martial arts concentrate on certain situations such as having your arms bound (Dragon Style and apperantly monkey style, but that one is a stretch even for me).

I have no idea how Toady is going to do martial arts.

[SirHoneyBadger]

It can be a lot easier, at times, to avoid seriously injuring/killing your opponent, in an intense fight situation (as opposed to a demonstration).

It doesn't take a whole lot of pressure to collapse a windpipe, shatter a nose, dislocate a knee or a finger, etc. which is why you get martial arts like Aikido, where the goal is to win the fight, conclusively, while doing the least harm possible.

[Noble Digger]

I've talked with an old mate of mine about WoW recently, and I began to think....some of the special abilities from WoW could fit well into the DF gameworld also. However I am not sure that how could these work, since we don't have "cooldowns" in the game. Also I am not going to list any magic related special abilities.

Ok let's see, some examples:
[Note: Attacker = the creature, which uses the special ability.]

Oh god, the cancer, get it out of the DF forums