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[Gruz]

Hello,

I just woke up and first thing in my mind was: "Why there is no research at all in DF?".

Offcourse they are old civilization and all, but as starter dwarves are allmost peasants themselfs, maybe banished criminals or something, as there are no skillfull workers with them?
So, how come they know all the inventions right away? How much could a low level mechanic know about every very difficult machinery, like catapults and flow gate machinery? Maybe flow gates should be at start, as it will be bit difficult to get watersystems to work without, but maybe only wooden or stone and we have to research metallic upgrade? There could be many inventors with this, as mechanic invent the mechanism, iron worker invents metallic part upgrades and so on, maybe we get some good use for those nobles at last, as they can invent sosiological and community stuff?? There even could be different research trees, so you have to make a choice or stupid inventor couldnt research most difficult inventions?

But great Toady one, I bet you have thought about this already, but if not, think about possibility to upgrade machinery, weapons, traps and stuff with inventions and research, would it be difficult to code at this point?

(I didnt find topics about this at fast search... so, sorry for possible double post)

[Dareon Clearwater]

Theoretically, you the player act as inventor.  Build a better elf trap and the world will [GRASSTRAMPLE] a path to your floodgates.

The invention process simply takes place over multiple fortresses.  Think about it:  When you were first starting out, you were mostly playing with rocks.  You might build some walls to keep sieges out, but unless you were heavily browsing the wiki, magma or water traps wouldn't be feasible in your state of learning.  After some experimentation, your forts get better and better at doing what you want them to do, and you begin stretching out of your comfort zone into magmafalls and megaconstructions.

The main problem I see with research trees is it makes very little sense.  If you're playing an outpost of the largest dwarven civilization in history, having survived and thrived for over a thousand years, it would seriously break suspension of disbelief to start with sharp sticks and crude stone huts. 

It might be interesting to have a tutorial mode that acted like tech trees, introducing you to the various mechanisms, siege engines, and whatnot, but I feel safe in assuming the majority of current DF players like having access to all of their goodies right from the start.  Of course, the logical option is an init setting.

I enjoy a nice game of Civilization or Age of Empires, but most of the time I wind up sitting there going "It's 2013 already, hurry up and finish researching the Automobile!"

And seriously, "almost peasants"? In the vast majority of cases, your starting dwarves are, comparatively, the best and brightest.

[kefkakrazy]

He's got a real point. While tech research has its place in other games, in DF, it really doesn't make much sense. I mean, what would it be? Where would it end? Researching Longer Range Bolts (requires five elf skull totems), or Research Make Better Walls (fifty dwarfbucks)? Or gods help us all, Toady adding in Warcraft speech files ("WE NEED LUMBER! WE NEED FOOD! WE NEED GOLD! SCREW ALL THAT, WE NEED SOME BOOZE UP IN HERE!")

DF doesn't really work if you try applying RTS concepts to it.

[Footkerchief]

There are at least a few past threads in which the ideas of inventions, tech trees, research, etc. were discussed to death.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=2989.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5171.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=19843.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3687.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3661.0

[TCHJ3K]

DF pretty much gives you the tools to do your own research. Which is more entertaining - crafting a couple hundred mechanisms until your guys magically figure out how to build a Dwarven Pit O' Doom, or dicking around digging holes and designing it yourself?

You have levers, you have a big mountain to cut holes in, you have walls and stuff you can build - IMO, "formalising" inventions would take half of the fun out of it.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I agree with the idea that everything is essentially "right there"--although I would like to have plenty of fiendishly difficult end-result "inventions" to work out.

Also, I wouldn't mind if there were (as there are now) certain stages of the game that are only opened up upon the arrival of a Noble, the creation of certain Artifacts, the releasing of the HFS, concentrating on certain skills, etc. etc.

Things that aren't 'tech trees' in and of themselves, but that you can't just start out doing from the moment you strike the earth.

Economics and the Army Arc are two such areas that come to mind. I don't see anything askew with requiring serious infrastructure before certain things can be "unlocked".

I really enjoy that aspect of the game, and the more there is, the further back the "end-game" is pushed, and the more entertaining a single Fortress can be.

I also personally don't see much that's wrong with assigning certain dwarfs to work out processes for you, in some kind of lab situation (although Armok knows what kind of 'lab situations' dwarfs would use/involve themselves in.).

Philosopher Nobles could be doing this sort of thing, too.

And I think there's a place in the game for portraying our dwarfs, both singularly, and as a population, getting more education, sharing knowledge, and building on previous knowledge/skill/experience, in order to try new things.

[Gruz]

Yep, as I think more about it, you are right.

Maybe I just want more something in DF, as I have tested almost everything in my 10+ fortresses.
As this topic have been discussed many times over, no need to continue conversation any more...

Lets just trust Toady, that he knows whats best for DF in this field.

[xaque]

I think there is a simple tech tree of sorts, in the production of things like soap and steel. You have to find or trade for iron first, then find or trade for flux. Plus you have to build a wood furnace or find magma, then build a smelter, then finally a forge to actually make things out of it. So, it's a pretty simple and shallow tech tree, but it's there. I would like to see this expanded, but I have no idea where it would go without becoming "undwarven".

[LegoLord]

Yep, as I think more about it, you are right.

Maybe I just want more something in DF, as I have tested almost everything in my 10+ fortresses.

Hah! No, there is always more to try.

[Skorpion]

There is. If you make a few catapult pieces and leave it at that, they won't work too well. If you create hundreds, the worker's skill will improve and he'll innovate, making adjustments to the design.

[Foa]

Well, you could go to a research archive to learn about the exploits.

http://dwarvenscience.pbwiki.com/

[Kanddak]

I don't want to see RTS cliches in DF. I don't like the idea of having a "your mechanic isn't allowed to build water wheels until you research the water wheel tech" system of silliness.

But I wouldn't mind if, when a dwarf produced something unusual like a blowgun from a strange mood, he invented/discovered blowguns for his civ (getting credit in legends and being the subject of engravings), and that civ could thenceforth produce, and equip soldiers with, blowguns and blowdarts.
Mainly it would be really cool to see things like that persist in the world, so when I start a new fort or adventurer in "the world where the dwarf civ invented blowguns" I'd have dwarves with blowguns, or I might occasionally generate a world where the goblins had figured out how to make steel.

The technological-advancement stuff that people sometimes ask for could be handled by putting items in the raws and not setting any civs to be able to make them, so they only appear when someone invents them. There could be allowances for dependencies, so that only a civ that can make chain armor has the potential to have a plate armor invention mood, or something like that. I'm sure some fun could then be had by making it so none of the civs are able to make anything other than stone axes initially.

[zchris13]

In that system, only Dwarves would have tech advances, for only they can have strange moods.  It's part of the [trance] tag, which also includes Martial Trances.  If they're controlled by the same tag, shouldn't that mean that a martial trance should produce a masterpiece slaughter?

[LegoLord]

I'm fairly certain all intelligent creatures have the trance tag.  Or at least, all civ creatures.

[zchris13]

Really? I heard it mentioned somewhere that only dwarves had it. Whatever, I believe you.