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[Neonivek]

Well, Toady once said that he didn't think of anything about Detecting poison and I am really not all sure I can do it justice. But hopefully with the boards help we can do SOMETHING.

Remember that you can take appart and use individual good ideas.

So here is the idea:

-Skills-

-Poison: Identifying poisons requires, well... knowledge of poisons which you can achieve from using poisons or studying
-Awareness: Discovering a poison uses this. It should be noted that discovering if a corpse has been poisoned uses the Poison skill/knowledge.

Possible other skills include awareness skills specifically set for poisons.

-Visual Cues-

Poisons have a visual aspect and since Toady has imputed Colors into the game... Why not use them? If Toxins are clear or the same color as the object it is on (which Air would still be clear) then you must deal with its base detection (Clear poison in Water is almost impossible to detect). If it is a different color then identifying it becomes much easier.

The amount of dose also determines how difficult it is to detect visually.

Note: you can identify an unknown substance but not as a poison. Paranoid creatures won't eat it and Foolish ones will easily chow down.

-Taste and Smell-

If the poison is on a plate of food or in the air a different method of detection comes up. Your character eats and breathes in the toxins. His skill in detecting poison determines how much of a dose he/she gets from the toxins. At the lowest skill he can get a full dose, at highest he can avoid the toxin all together and still identify it.

Poisons should have scales to determine how identifyable they are by smell and taste assuming it applies.

Passive and Active are two different aspects. If you are passively detecting toxins in the air and food then not detecting any always results in a full dose. If you are actively seeking poison then you never get a full dose unless you are at low skill. It should be noted that you still need to breath and being entirely surrounded by airborn toxins will still give you a full dose, or close to it, if your actively or passively smelling unless you had some sort of a filter.

-Poison Identification Substance, Symptom, and Corpse-

When spotting a poison you need to identify it based off of your knowledge of poisons. Poisons may or may not have a base identification on all three of these based on how well it can simulate natural (or non-poison related) conciquences. Also a World Generation number should be determined by how rare the substance is and how intigrated it is in that society.

It should be noted that characters don't know everything. So poisons should always have a base identification

When identifying Poisons themselves you use your Poison skill to identify it. Your chances of success it determined by how many other toxins matching its description exist (which is rolled up on World Creation) as well as the base difficulty. If you use equipment to detect it then you can further split it up by the source so you may only have to detect it based off of all plant based poisons. If you use Test subjects you can further split it up.
-Interestingly Perhaps poisons could have some tags to help this.

Identifying if someone is poisoned your character determines if it is poison by the base detection and symptoms. It should be noted that while you could identify it as a poison, you may not identify what poison it is.

-Note: It should be said that while some people will have the urge to make their ultimate poison indetectable by giving it super high identification. If it causes someone's head to explode it would probably not be that difficult to figure out.

Corpse identification works in a similar way to the above but it much easier due to an autopsy ability (which probably should be a seperate skill).

-Final Words-

Well I just wanted to get this out there... I am not very proud at what I came up with... Hopefully there is something good in this mess.

[Warlord255]

I hate to be a spoilsport, but it might be simpler to have advanced wounds - including poisons, and possibly details on types of wounds (fractures, etc.) that would be generalized as "damaged" otherwise - be diagnosed by a Doctor before being revealed to the player. If nothing else, it'd be better to generalize it as "Poisoned" and need a doctor before you know which type.

[irmo]

Well, Toady once said that he didn't think of anything about Detecting poison and I am really not all sure I can do it justice. But hopefully with the boards help we can do SOMETHING.

Remember that you can take appart and use individual good ideas.

So here is the idea:

-Skills-

-Poison: Identifying poisons requires, well... knowledge of poisons which you can achieve from using poisons or studying
-Awareness: Discovering a poison uses this. It should be noted that discovering if a corpse has been poisoned uses the Poison skill/knowledge.

Possible other skills include awareness skills specifically set for poisons.

How many skills do you want to add just to deal with poison detection? It's a narrowly interesting feature. I don't want to start getting immigrants whose skills are "Poison Visual Detector, Poison Smell Detector, Corpse Examiner".

A much simpler option: Give each poison two tags: how it's delivered (food, airborne, contact, wound) and one number indicating how hard it is to detect (so that you can have more or less subtle poisons). Make this a penalty to Alchemy skill checks to detect that poison when examining anything containing it, and Medicine checks to detect it when treating a victim or examining a corpse.

[Neonivek]

I hate to be a spoilsport, but it might be simpler to have advanced wounds - including poisons, and possibly details on types of wounds (fractures, etc.) that would be generalized as "damaged" otherwise - be diagnosed by a Doctor before being revealed to the player. If nothing else, it'd be better to generalize it as "Poisoned" and need a doctor before you know which type.

I am more interested in Poison Detection for Adventurers who may have to learn all this themselves rather then have a dedicated Poison detector / Doctor with them.

Though your right, Medicine skill should also be involved. I can't believe I overlooked it.

How many skills do you want to add just to deal with poison detection? It's a narrowly interesting feature. I don't want to start getting immigrants whose skills are "Poison Visual Detector, Poison Smell Detector, Corpse Examiner".

Actually... I only had two in my original write up. Though Corpse Examining is good.

Though Toady IS planning on exploding the number of skills we currently have. So including many for one job isn't so bad.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well there is enough vermin (and cats) in a average fortress to test food on them - for many not dwarfo-centric poisons i think its a viable methode of detection. Even dead vermin at your stockpiles could show you that some of food is poisonous.

[Neonivek]

Well there is enough vermin (and cats) in a average fortress to test food on them - for many not dwarfo-centric poisons i think its a viable methode of detection. Even dead vermin at your stockpiles could show you that some of food is poisonous.

Rats would probably be a good judge due to their weak constitution but inability to expell substances through the Oral Cavities. (or rather... Rats can't vomit. Neither can Horses)

[SirHoneyBadger]

This gives me one idea: since different animals (including humans) tend to be harmed by different substances, perhaps each critter could have a specific set of food tolerances.

I can't remember where, but I've read that a good way to test whether tropical fruits/berries are poisonous (should you ever be stuck on an island somewhere) is to only eat what both monkeys and birds are eating. Between the two, and the tolerances each have, supposedly you should be ok.

Ofcourse, by the time the birds and the monkeys are finished eating, there's probably not a lot left, but it's an interesting idea, and one that would be a lot more useful in a DF situation, where your dwarfs would have time to observe animals.

Using that kind of "tolerance" system-along with a lot of other factors-it would conceivably be possible to include randomly created types of plants/fungi.

Not every single plant, probably, but enough to make the idea of discovering new and unknown crops/food sources around your fortress interesting.

Along with possible poisons, other factors might include things like what vitamins and nutrients the plants have, once we get the proper organs to process them.

[Neonivek]

Don't forget that a Canary is used to detect airbound poisons.

[irmo]

Rats would probably be a good judge due to their weak constitution but inability to expell substances through the Oral Cavities. (or rather... Rats can't vomit. Neither can Horses)

If you just want to know whether something is edible, it might be better to test on something that can vomit. If it vomits, you will probably vomit as well. For an animal that can't vomit you'll get a better idea of the effects of the poison, since it will get the full dose, but you'll have to wait for it to work.

Rats are remarkably resistant to some poisons, generally in the "products of decay" category (since rats are scavengers). For example, they can handle almost any dose of alcohol.

I am more interested in Poison Detection for Adventurers who may have to learn all this themselves rather then have a dedicated Poison detector / Doctor with them.

That's a reason to fold it into a more broadly useful skill, not to add yet another skill that you need to have so you don't randomly die to poison. And if the skill exists, we will get immigrants who have it, just like we do for cheese and soap making.

Though Toady IS planning on exploding the number of skills we currently have. So including many for one job isn't so bad.

That may be what Toady is planning, but that's no reason to encourage him.

[Neonivek]

Rats are remarkably resistant to some poisons, generally in the "products of decay" category (since rats are scavengers). For example, they can handle almost any dose of alcohol

They are also susceptable to everyday objects like cheese.

Well I guess it depends Irmo. Your trying to see if it will kill you. Not if it will make you vomit.

Though it would be hillarious if you fed a rat (or Horse) an Emetic and thought it was perfectly safe. Though Id assume an Emetic would give them one HECK of a sour stomach even without the vomit.

[¿]

Urist McHealthInspector cancels eat, interrupted by lead contaminants?

[Neonivek]

Urist McHealthInspector cancels eat, interrupted by lead contaminants?

Interestingly the Romans knew about Lead poisoning for a very long time (Though what EXACTLY they knew about it is beyond me) but the English many years later I THINK had little knowledge of its existance.

Detecting someone being Ill by some sort of poison would be one thing. Knowing that it was Lead that caused it when it is just like any other metal is another.