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Author Topic: Combat Uses for Social Skills  (Read 1268 times)

Rakeela

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Combat Uses for Social Skills
« on: March 03, 2009, 02:36:26 am »

Some of the social skills seem like they'd have combat uses.  Specifically:  Intimidator, Liar, Judge of Intent, and Persuader.

I picked these in order of how 'reasonable' they seem to me.  I'll run them down one by one.

Intimidator:  An intimidating presence in battle is very desirable.  It increases the odds that an enemy will miss opportunities or even have their nerve broken entirely.  I envision this manifesting in attacks against the intimidating dwarf - and possibly others adjacent to them? - being more likely to miss.  After enough attacks have missed due to intimidation, attacks that would've otherwise hit, the game would start making morale checks on the frightened enemy to see if they flee.  Wounds should diminish the Intimidator's effect, unless the Intimidator has gone Berserk, in which case they have no effect.

Judge of Intent:  Fighters who are effective at reading the emotions and intentions of those around them are less likely to be taken in by tricks.  Judge of Intent would allow the dwarf posessing it to ignore social skills used by their opponents as well as other trick/feint type abilities (if such were implemented).  They're also slightly less likely to be hit in combat themselves.  Berserk dwarves may or may not still benefit from this skill.

Liar:  Cunning, dirty fighters can get the upper hand on enemies as well.  Having a high liar stat should slightly improve accuracy and dodging.  Liars are used to thinking on their feet and they use feints/tricks effectively on their enemies.  Like with Intimidator, wounds should diminish this.  Berserk dwarves wouldn't get any benefit from Liar.

Persuader:  What is a highly skilled persuader doing in combat in the first place?  Putting that question aside for the moment I was envisioning that after Master rank or so a tiny chance should be checked each action to see if they convince the enemy they're fighting to flee, with the chance increasing with skill improvements from level.  Legendary Persuaders, and only legendary Persuaders, should have a similarly tiny chance of convincing their enemy to defect mid-battle.

It's hilarious to imagine Legendary Comedians in the battlefield but I doubt it would have impact on how the battle would flow.  Perhaps such a character would improve the effective morale of their side?  A laughing band of blood-spattered dwarves could be horrifying to face in battle itself.  I can't decide what impact a high-level Comedian might have. 

Flatterer, Conversationalist, and Negotiator seem similarly uncertain, but they're even more likely to be useless.

What does everyone think of the idea?  Obviously, it's a low-priority thing, as I don't envision the effects should be all that strong.  If it were implemented it'd be one of those 'dev team thinks of everything' ideas.  As long as they're small enough not to be vastly detrimental to those who don't know them, I'm fond of obscure effects.
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Capntastic

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 02:42:18 am »

While I know social skills are sort of un-implemented right now, I don't think making them "BONUS COMBAT STUFF" is the way to go.   Not everything needs to have a combat benefit.
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Rakeela

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 03:14:26 am »

Isn't having everything get a combat benefit one of the ideas behind that 'Improved Tools' suggestion?  Kind of like the way mining is like spearfighting but less so, and picks are like spears but less so.
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Warlord255

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 03:23:03 am »

If nothing else, I would love to see an Adventurer option to taunt people, or have social skills affect your dealings with people.
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Capntastic

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 05:05:41 am »

Isn't having everything get a combat benefit one of the ideas behind that 'Improved Tools' suggestion?  Kind of like the way mining is like spearfighting but less so, and picks are like spears but less so.

Miners use their mining skill if they're bashing stuff with a pick, I think.   But the point is that social skills don't need to have 'bonus combat applications' other than the fact that an intimidating person is more intidimidating, a sly person is more sly, etc.   That's natural and intuitive.   Stuff like "Intimidating people are intimidating unless they're wounded UNLESS they're berserk!!" doesn't make sense in a realistic way, and is too micro-managey.
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Rakeela

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 05:10:50 am »

You're kidding, right?  Reality is fiddly in a way that no game will ever be.  Truly realistic games are unplayable - the computer gets all the fun, because events are beyond the capability of the player.  In this case it's okay because the result is something we playfully write into stories anyways, so it's okay if nobody notices that it gets modeled into the system.

Isn't intimidation factor one of the things soldiers try to do anyways?  Are you going to be scared of someone who has a bunch of spears sticking out of every part of their body?  What if it doesn't seem to be slowing them down (berserked)?

Edit:  Apologies for the edit, I wanted to clarify.  I'm not attached to this concept, it just amused me to consider.  The reason I made a quick reply was that it was declared unrealistic, and specifically the most realistic of the set was picked on to be declared that.  (The persuader one, as I address lower in the edit, actually IS unrealistic in all but the legendary-skills-legendary-actions sense.)  As for micro-managey, I only realized just now that I didn't address that point clearly.  It wouldn't be micromanagey for the reason that people wouldn't pay attention to it directly.  Morale already is part of the system - goblins flee when you do enough damage to them, and in any case they're a valuable ore, so it's doubtful that anybody's going to train up intimidation to get a small amount of increased morale damage.  The persuader one is the only one with a unique and notable effect, and I included that one last (in an ordering of most reasonable to least reasonable) because it seemed pretty silly.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 05:18:24 am by Rakeela »
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Mikademus

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 05:43:33 am »

Persuader:  What is a highly skilled persuader doing in combat in the first place?  Putting that question aside for the moment I was envisioning that after Master rank or so a tiny chance should be checked each action to see if they convince the enemy they're fighting to flee, with the chance increasing with skill improvements from level.  Legendary Persuaders, and only legendary Persuaders, should have a similarly tiny chance of convincing their enemy to defect mid-battle. ... Flatterer, Conversationalist, and Negotiator seem similarly uncertain, but they're even more likely to be useless.

Persuader, flatterer, conversationalist and Negotiator all could influence enemies sparing someone's life, fleeing or defecting.
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Capntastic

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 07:03:18 am »

Persuader, flatterer, conversationalist and Negotiator all could influence enemies sparing someone's life, fleeing or defecting.

Yeah, but not in the heat of a pitched battle, and not as a passive 'bonus-mechanic' so much as the skill itself being utilized naturally.
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Creamcorn

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 07:30:35 am »

Perhaps these social combat skills could work on something like taking a certain action before waiting for your opponent to attack you, so they are an action that can only be done one turn really.

I'll just use intimidate as an example. Say your fighting a gobo recruit who has no skills what so ever. Say you use a new command like eh say 's'kills you can page through and look for intimidate find it etc.

O.K. before you use it on said gobo the game reveals the chances of you making a successful attempt on the gobo and he could react in a certain number of ways, run away, look for the nearest cliff to jump off, go look for some new buddies, etc. But lets say this gobo's skill in intimidation is legendary+2, now lets say that your skill in just novice now the gobo has resistance to your attempts depending on his own skill of imtimidation.
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Capntastic

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 07:58:57 am »

the game reveals the chances of you making a successful attempt on the gobo

Why?
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Creamcorn

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 08:08:13 am »

the game reveals the chances of you making a successful attempt on the gobo

Why?

Well like you said earlier you wouldn't want to leave the chances of being able to do something to the computer so "only it could fun".

Plus D&D rules are starting to get annoying to me, especially after playing TOME.
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Mikademus

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 10:04:19 am »

Persuader, flatterer, conversationalist and Negotiator all could influence enemies sparing someone's life, fleeing or defecting.

Yeah, but not in the heat of a pitched battle, and not as a passive 'bonus-mechanic' so much as the skill itself being utilized naturally.

Actually, yes, it could be used in the heat of battle, reflecting the individual's normal battle behaviour: a insta-flatterer could avoid the coup de grace, or an fast-talker convincing his opponent about the futility of his efforts or the superiority of his side. This would have the additional bonus of socially apt guards being able to cajole a dorf throwing a tantrum to calm while having at him rather than just being forced to knock him senseless.

However, we might be talking about the same thing. My idea was rather that these skills amplified the effects of "normal" battle communications, like intimidation, pleading or swaying, rather than be active skill checks of their own.

That said, I rather fancy the notion of two master swordsdorfs having a legendary conversation under a fierce battle.
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2009, 10:14:20 am »

 'k'
 Down
 Down
 Select the Intimidate option.
 Read reaction.
 Talking menu exits, effects take place.

 I really think such benefits of social skills would be used in the talking menu. The passive ones(Judge of intent) would merely reveal more things when looking at a creature, which would need to be a new feature to the look command in adventurer skills. This would mostly be for Adventurer Mode, as Dwarf Mode would abstract this out.
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numerobis

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2009, 11:20:19 am »

It's hilarious to imagine Legendary Comedians in the battlefield but I doubt it would have impact on how the battle would flow.  Perhaps such a character would improve the effective morale of their side?  A laughing band of blood-spattered dwarves could be horrifying to face in battle itself.  I can't decide what impact a high-level Comedian might have.
Making your escape while the bad guy laughs maniacally is a long-standing tradition in bad fantasy/sci-fi.  A good comedian might bring that out in a goblin leader.

The other alternative is to get all the goblins to rofl -- it's a lot easier to hit a prone opponent.

Intimidation and judge of intent make sense to me; persuasion only if you have a common language; liar I'm not so sure -- how does telling lies make you miss the axe coming at your face?
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Combat Uses for Social Skills
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2009, 03:15:00 pm »

Urist Mcliar: Oh no, a goblin!
Goblin Rapedbaby: Ahah, dwarf scum, we have you now!
Urist: Oh by the way, I heard that you don't have any arms and legs and you love all forms of life.

Goblin rapedbaby has changed profession to Quadraplegic Hippy.
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