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[GlyphGryph]

Right now, once a dwarf goes off the deep end, there is no way for them to recover. I think this isn't nearly as much fun as allowing a small (unlikely) chance of their recovery.

I think the key, though, is something thats also part of the problem - friends.

Much in the same way dwarves who are upset will go talk to the mayor for help, other dwarves should come and console a dwarf who has gone wonky. They can remind him of his duty, of his potential, and the fact that despite the loss of his wife and three brothers, he's still not alone.

Obviously, this is something that would take support, time AND good conditions. Meanwhile, the depressed dwarf will occasionally attempt suicide, the berserk will try to break free from wherever he's being held and attack other dwarves, and the insane dwarf - well, the insane dwarf is simple the most difficult to help recover.

So not only do you need to avoid them accomplishing their mad aims, you need to figure out a way to keep them happy , accesible to their friends, and alive long enough, and even then they may be "recovered" but they  may not be cured.  Depending on their personality, they may always be a bit more mentally fragile.

So, what do y'all think? Any suggestions on how the idea could be improved, as well?

[Warlord255]

An important precursor to this is the ability for guard/soldiers to nonlethally capture berserk/insane dwarves, and an incentive to stop and capture suicidal ones.

Berserk dwarves would be actively trying to kill any interlopers (or just passersby), but insane/suicidal ones would only lash out when someone attempts to restrain them. For the insane/suicidal dwarves, civilians could be inclined to try to help, but with their inferior wrestling skills would likely have difficulty stopping them with anything short of a dogpile.

New unhappy thoughts could be generated from responsibility; "failed to stop a friend from committing suicide", etc.

[Silverionmox]

A necessary correction for the tantrum spirals are "was comforted by a friend lately"-type thoughts.

[Craftling]

ASYLUM ASYLUM ASYLUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Foa]

ASYLUM ASYLUM ASYLUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  ASYLUM ASYLUM ASYLUM!!!

[Pilsu]

You don't recover from madness. Capturing them would be nice though, even though I personally consider such crap a fate worse than death the society usually doesn't agree

The different types of madness could be a bit more distinct though. Berserk dwarves should still have enough mental faculties to eat and drink and most importantly, should pick up weapons and perhaps armor. Sure they're mad but ax crazy is called that for a reason 


That said, dwarven mental health is.. unstable to say the least and moods ranging from miserable to ecstatic is a bit bleh. Personally I'd make personality combined with the severity of loss cause debuffs ranging from slow work speed to refusal to work, barely eating and moping around in their house. It would also cap their mood for the duration so a dwarf that just lost all his kids isn't gonna be ecstatic no matter how sweet his house is. Tantrums should be reserved for appropriate situations and fist fights be made much less lethal. Friends would then try to make anyone moping feel better. Significant losses like kids, wife etc would make the dwarf unproductive for months. It should be significant. Trade off is that your dwarves would be considerably less likely to kill everything or go mad

Basic idea is that severe unhappiness is more persistent and has real downsides as to encourage trying to keep the dwarves happy but wouldn't result in massive spiral of death and madness the second someone feels bad. Violent dwarves are a minority so the tantrum spiral would turn into general depression and general unproductivity

[Rakeela]

The new wounds system should make plain fist fights dramatically less lethal.  All that layering (skin, muscle, bones, nerves) means that a fist fight is more likely to result in awful bruising rather than broken spines or permanent nerve damage.

I don't agree that you don't recover from madness though.  Unless it's dementia due to brain damage (especially such as illnesses can cause), insanity isn't a permanent affliction.  It's curable.  It's hard to cure, but a hopeless case isn't really, they're just unlikely to be helpable.

The ax-crazy dwarf is still likely to end up dead, because that's a lot farther than most people snap, and it'd be a pain to capture them.  How do you make someone who's gone that far accessible to anyone?  You can kill someone with thrown vomit in this game, so just putting them behind bars wouldn't do the trick.

That said, there are people who turn suicidal that aren't doomed to feel that way their entire life.  How many 'uplifting' stories have you heard of people who say, "My entire family died, and I was going to jump off a cliff, but a friend tackled me at the last moment.  That was a few months ago now and I've realized they was right to do it.  There are still things to live for."  So suicidal dwarves at the least should have a fair chance of recovery if stopped.

[Craftling]

It would also be more logical if a dwarf come beserk should go and knife someone that he/she feels is responsible for their condition, or someone they have a grudge against.

[LegoLord]

Yeah Pilsu, it really depends on the cause.  If it's emotional trauma, you can recover.  That means we should be able to get Moody dwarves back.

[Ezuku]

Ah, agree... especially with depressed dwarves.

[Felblood]

I agree that some insane dwarves should eventually be recoverable, possibly even berserk dwarves.

Most dwarven insanity appears to be some sort of stress related, disassociate disorder. The dwarf can't handle how bad his life has gotten and retreats into some inner world.

Whatever fractured, distorted perception of the outside world a berserk dwarf has, it's going to be difficult if not impossible to get through to him. Plus, if he killed a bunch of friends, the guilt over what he's done should threaten to push him right back under.

"He took pleasure over the slaughter of a friend recently, and feels tremendous guilt over it."

There was some discussion about this sort of thing a while ago here. The OP proposed that philosophers could help treat the insane, and arguments against that took up most of the thread, but there was a lot of general discussion on the possibilities for insanity.

[RantingRodent]

I don't think this would be so much of an issue if insanity wasn't a dwarf's second or third resort to respond to tragedy.  Dwarves shouldn't be much more unstable than humans are, and if humans were anywhere near what DF dwarves are like, World War II would have caused a global tantrum spiral and offed our entire species.

[Neonivek]

"I don't think this would be so much of an issue if insanity wasn't a dwarf's second or third resort to respond to tragedy."

Dwarves for the most part entirely ignore Tragedy and pretty much go along with their lives as if nothing happened.

Of course if Tragedy goes past the breaking point... THEN THEY tantrum.

Of course Special Moods is another story...

[Pilsu]

It would also be more logical if a dwarf come beserk should go and knife someone that he/she feels is responsible for their condition, or someone they have a grudge against.

Doesn't really work like that in real life


Yeah, I suppose melancholy logically should be treatable. Only by friends though. If the guy has no friends, he'd probably starve to death before anyone noticed his hunger strike or his sight seeing tour to the maggot trap area

As for stark raving mad, good fucking luck with that. Psychology doesn't actually cure anyone that's actually broken. It's a pseudoscience built to peddle mind affecting drugs and well, dwarves don't have those. Talking won't cure madness, you're lucky if it cures melancholy. Talking with friends has the same effect as "therapy". I would like to be able to restrain and keep them alive if I so wish though. Sure they'd be useless but most of my dwarves are

[Neonivek]

Interestingly enough Pilsu... People in countries without access to medication often have higher levels of recovery from insanity other forms of distress then those in ours.

Though it has more to do with the environment and current psychology is starting to catch up by building assilums that simulate that community aspect. (So the rates of recovery may very well start to increase on our end)