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[Pie]

Well, I've been thinking about this since Toady mentionned about being able to run the game without announcements (or thereabouts), continuously. So I was wondering how easy it would be to create a sustainable fort. I am going to limit myself with the following constraints:
1) No traditional traps (stone-fall, weapon etc)
2) Fortress must go up in value for as long as possible
3) No modifications can be made to the game
4) The faster it can be set up, the better
5) Only the starting 7 allowed

One of the main initial problems is food shortages, which lead me to the conclusion that either immigrants will have to be killed or excess food must be produced from the start (to sustainably cope with 200 odd dwarves). I think that the first is probably the best way to go, and I think I have come up with a cool way of dealing with them: effectively have a retracting bridge as the entrance, with a pressure plate just before it. Something like:

Code: [Select]

p = Pressure Plates linked to doors and bridge
B = Bridge (not retracted)
o = Bridge (retracted - open space)
. = Floor
D = Door (shut
d = Door (open)

Stage 1:          Stage 2:
WWWWWWWWWWWWW     WWWWWWWWWWWWW
WWWBBBBBBBBBW     WWWoooooooooW
dpdBBBBBBBBBd     DpDoooooooooD
WWWBBBBBBBBBW     WWWoooooooooW
WWWWWWWWWWWWW     WWWWWWWWWWWWW
And then below it have a room with a small farm with seeds and a water supply based on a river. First immigrants would fall into the room, but then invaders and the suchlike... could be interesting how 30 crappy immigrants deal with 1 elite goblin swordsmaster... There would also have to be a repeater using river water, to reset this. My only concern is about units staying in the square with the pressure plate on, for one reason or another. Then when the doors opened, they could just waltz over the bridge... anyone got any ideas? Perhaps I could have a pressure plate activated drowning chamber after that, to be sure that the person was killed. Also, how would I stop my dwarves on the inside wandering into this death trap?

Another issue is food. As my farmer (I don't think I would need more than one, as I would probably only be dealing with a few dwarves) will get more skilled after I leave the game, will produce a surplus, using the same farm. Perhaps I could build up a large stock of food beforehand, large enough that the dwarves survive long enough for the farmer to get to a sustainable level. And how many barrels would I need to construct?

The final issue that I need resolution to is the increasing value required. I was thinking that I could have a system where the dwarves constantly build rock crafts, and when they are all in their bedrooms, it would release some stored water, which would carry the rock crafts onto a lower level. I think it would work like this:

Code: [Select]

d = Door leading to workshops, linked to pressure plates in dwarves' rooms (open)
S = Water source
~ = Water
W = Wall
C = Craft Stockpile
F = Floodgate linked to pressure plate in dwarves' rooms. (closed)

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
WWWWWWWWWWWCCCCCCCCCCCC_W
S~~FFFFFFF.CCCCCCCCCCCC_W
WWWWWWWWWWWCCCCCCCCCCCC_W
WWWWWWWWWWWdWdWdDWdWdWdWW

So can you guys see any problems/answer any of my questions/suggest better solutions?

[Mohreb el Yasim]

for the first problem you could just seal up your fortress, and for the value ... you migth add repeating decoring item type jobs so it can add value withouth place ...

[Hyndis]

Really all you need is a well, a plump helmet farm plot, and a very nice dining room. Everything else is optional.

If you want to increase wealth without any input from the player, simply embark in an area where you can harvest spider silk, set up a few looms, then go AFK. Spider silk cloth by itself is quite valuable, particularly with skilled weavers, and you can both make crafts with it and decorate those crafts with even more silk.

As for barrels, just embark with, say, 100 tower cap logs. Make a repeat make barrel task. When it finally runs out of wood, thats 100 barrels plus the barrels your embark food comes in, which should be adequate.

To control the size of the plump helmet harvest, simply limit the size of the plump helmet stockpile. I generally go with a 5x5 stockpile myself, where all extra food simply rots in the field, otherwise my fortress would be absolutely overrun with plump helmets.

[Pie]

for the first problem you could just seal up your fortress, and for the value ... you migth add repeating decoring item type jobs so it can add value withouth place ...

Yeah it possibly wasn't made clear, but I wanted it to still be "beatable" so seigers or whatever would try to attack it (and after say 10 years there would be a mass of assorted gore in the room below from all of the fights).

On the idea of spider silk, I think it would be good, though I think that my division of labour would be as follows:
4 guys for just gathering
2 guys making the crafts
1 guy decorating those crafts
to try to make it so that there would never be a job cancellation from a lack of the resource (would the spiders produce enough for 2 guys to make the crafts and 1 guy to decorate them? Is there any way of increasing spider silk gathering?). Also, do you think that my water based system would work to constantly free up stockpile space? The only problem that I could see would be  if dwarves were not all sleeping at the same time, meaning it never got drained, though I suppose it would only mean lowering the productivity of the dwarves. I could make it so that the gathering dwarves never go anywhere near the draining area, meaning it would only need 3 dwarves simultaneously in their bedrooms to work.

Oh, and from what I remember there is a problem with having a pressure plate linked to 2 things which has them alternately (so the door being open when the bridge is down). Perhaps it could be like this:

Code: [Select]

p = Pressure Plates linked to doors and floodgate
P = Pressure plates linked to bridge
B = Bridge (not retracted)
o = Bridge (retracted - open space)
. = Floor
D = Door (shut
d = Door (open)
S = Water Source
~ = Water
F = Floodgate (closed)
f = Floodgate (open)

Stage 1:          Stage 2:         Stage 3:
WWWWWWWWWWWWW     WWWWWWWWWWWWW     WWWWWWWWWWWWW
WWWBBBBBBBBBW     WWWBBBBBBBBBW     WWWoooooooooW
dpdBBBBBBBBBd     DpDBBBBBBBBBD     DpDoooooooooD
WWWBBBBBBBBBW     WWWBBBBBBBBBW     WWWoooooooooW
WWWWWWWWWWWWW     WWWWWWWWWWWWW     WWWWWWWWWWWWW

                  (Pressure plate is activated)
WWWWWW            WWWWWW
WS~FPW            WS~fPW
WWWWWW            WWWWWW

Although I would still need to add in a "delay repeator", which would cause the bridge to go back down, perhaps it could be like this:

Code: [Select]

P = Pressure plate connected to bridge (Activates when water is more than 2 deep.)
p = Pressure plate connected to bridge, floodgate and screw pumps above (Activates when water is 7 deep.)

WWWWWWW
WS~FPpW
WWWWWWW
Jesus this is getting complex. (Read dwarfy) Anyone got a vague idea if this will work?

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

You need to remember crop rotation.
If you keep growing the same crop for aaaages, it will refuse to grow for a season or so.

[Hyndis]

You need to remember crop rotation.
If you keep growing the same crop for aaaages, it will refuse to grow for a season or so.

I've never had this happen to me.

[numerobis]

Sustaining my current fortress would be pretty easy: I already have it set up with the only entrance popping up a staircase into my barracks.  With walls around it, the civilians wouldn't be walking by then.  Add a dozen recruits or so from the younger generation, and my fort would be totally protected.  I'd need to expand the farms a fair bit too: currently they only provide about a third of the food of my fort (another third is animals, the final third is gathering).  With both of those, I'd be OK for well over a century -- until my military dies of old age.

I wonder how many barrels, and how large of a plant stockpile, would be required to have a 'brew drink' job on repeat forever.

[Pie]

Sustaining my current fortress would be pretty easy: I already have it set up with the only entrance popping up a staircase into my barracks.  With walls around it, the civilians wouldn't be walking by then.  Add a dozen recruits or so from the younger generation, and my fort would be totally protected.  I'd need to expand the farms a fair bit too: currently they only provide about a third of the food of my fort (another third is animals, the final third is gathering).  With both of those, I'd be OK for well over a century -- until my military dies of old age.

I wonder how many barrels, and how large of a plant stockpile, would be required to have a 'brew drink' job on repeat forever.

Ah but you forgot to factor in enemies killing your military, which would happen unless you had them all geared out with the best kit and at legendary skill (which would take too long for my purposes). Also, the 'brew drink' problem is quite significant... I may simply rely on water. The only other option that I see would be somehow separating the brewing section from the food section, and have it so that the farm for the brewing section produces food at exactly the right rate to match brewing. Does anyone know if dwarves cancel the job at the building if they can't get to it? Because if they don't, I could have it so that the brewery gets locked off for a certain period of time...

Oh, and if anyone is interested I am actually building this fort right now.

[jasonxfri13th]

I was gonna say change it so you can only have 7 dwarves, but you do not want to change anything.

I would just make a pit and put captured goblins in it like you said. Or chain them to a wall and capture some wild animals.

[numerobis]

Dwarves will cancel (or suspend?) the job if they had a path to it, took the job, then the path was cut.

I was not forgetting deaths from combat.  Soldiers in full battle gear will become champions inside of two years -- often inside of one year.  I don't expect deaths from combat.

[Squirrelloid]

Wrestler, dabbling -> legendary, ~9 months

Hammerdwarf, dabbling -> legendary, ~1 year (other weapons are similar)

Shield Use, dabbling -> legendary, ~2 years

Armor Use, dabbling -> legendary, somewhere between 3 and 4 years.

The one that takes awhile is marksdwarves, and aren't as useful for not paying attention anyway.

So yeah, by the time you're set up to be self-sustaining, you will have legendary wrestlers who are probably also legendary with a weapon.

I might also note that while it may eventually be possible to play without announcements, it almost certainly won't be possible to turn off the trade liaisons and diplomats.  So given you're planning on weathering sieges and ambushes, you'll have to hit the button a few times to scroll through liaison text if he ever manages to catch you in a meeting.

(Alternately, you could build a clock to burninate the merchants with magma at the 15th of the first month of each season - that might work really well).

[Pie]

The main issue is having to dedicate people to militarism, while making the fort actually work. I would have to have 2 training, so that would leave me with 5 to both produce food and to collect silk + process it. Also, if I set the pressure plates to activate even for friendlies, surely they would also trap any liasons... oh, and I am planning to set this up FAR quicker than 3-4 years anyway, hopefully in only about 1 and a bit... (and I think the idea of dropping immigrants into a room and then have them try to kill all of my invaders is cool). And another thing is that giving dwarves full battle gear takes time in it of itself...

And on that clock idea, I would assume that it would rely on the predictable slowness of water or something, so by a certain date, the water would have reached a pressure plate to activate both the magma and the drainage... is that correct?

Also, thanks for the note about job cancellation.

[numerobis]

Oh, I see, you're talking about a minimum of time from founding to self-sufficiency.  I wasn't keeping track of that (my fort that would be easy to make self-sufficient is nearly 40 years old).

[numerobis]

If you play on a world where all friendly civilizations have died out, you won't get immigrants or caravans or liaisons.

Another idea for constant wealth increase, beyond cave spider silk weaving: magma glass furnace with a repeat collect sand and a repeat green glass whatever.  Or pig tail threshing (which automatically goes to weaving also) under the same system as brewing -- start with a huge stockpile, and make a huge farm that produces more than a legendary thresher can possibly thresh.

Repeat jobs get canceled one other way: when a dwarf gives birth.  So make sure your brewer and thresher are male.  For glassmaking, only allow males to use the workshop -- any adult dwarf will collect sand, regardless whether they have glassmaking on.

Oh, and there's one little issue.  Nobles.  If your parent civ is dead, you won't get any... except the mayor.  Who will be unhappy over and over about missed production mandates.  Without a sheriff or a hammerer, this is OK; just that the mayor might go postal.

[Squirrelloid]

The main issue is having to dedicate people to militarism, while making the fort actually work. I would have to have 2 training, so that would leave me with 5 to both produce food and to collect silk + process it. Also, if I set the pressure plates to activate even for friendlies, surely they would also trap any liasons... oh, and I am planning to set this up FAR quicker than 3-4 years anyway, hopefully in only about 1 and a bit... (and I think the idea of dropping immigrants into a room and then have them try to kill all of my invaders is cool). And another thing is that giving dwarves full battle gear takes time in it of itself...

It wouldn't take 3-4 years to be self-sufficient, legendary wrestling would be enough to be fairly fearsome, and then they could continue to train after you stop paying attention (switched to a weapon + continuing armor and shield training).  I mean, you plan on enemies walking through your barracks, where they'd be sparring, right?

Full battlegear could easily be available sometime year 2, and is unnecessary for wrestling training.  (Although you'd want to give them some armor and shield so they can start gaining skill - say Leather Armor and a Wood Shield?)

How fast do you expect the fortress to become self-sufficient anyway?  I mean, you'll still be laying out rooms by the end of the 5th year, and you'll need a military larger than 2 dwarves to withstand sieges, even if they are multi-legendary.

And on that clock idea, I would assume that it would rely on the predictable slowness of water or something, so by a certain date, the water would have reached a pressure plate to activate both the magma and the drainage... is that correct?

Ok, so imagine something like the following: 

%%-BB-PP-_

Where %% is your screwpump (pumping from the west),
BB is a drawbridge (attached on the west side),
P is a pressure plate, one set to 0-1 water, and the other to 6+ water
- is blank ground,
_ is a channel (there's also one under the eastern bridge tile)

%% is powered (and structure is otherwise encased in walls)

Without P and B down, water is at 7/7 for most of the length and empties naturally.  (This avoids multi-triggering of a P with a depth trigger when the bridge opens)

When water is high, P should trigger to raise bridge, causing water to drain from both side and emptying the chamber (bridge blocks new flow)

When water is low, P lowers bridge.

The bridge has a delay.

Thus, a cycle of the system takes well defined time.  You hook one of the Ps up to a counter system, adjust the length of the course so you can time a day on integer multiples of an operation cycle, and can thus have a system which knows which day it is during the year.  Since caravans always arrive on the 15th of the 1st month of a season, and you can time their transit time, you know when to burninate, and can thus set it up that when its the right day, the system should flood with magma.

This is of course a complicated engineering project that will probably take years to build.  I'm still working out the timing, although i have other fortresses i want to 'finish' before i dedicate a lot of time to it.