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[Toady One]

There was interest in another thread about adding some additional organization to the suggestion forum to allow people to build on heavily-discussed topics more easily.  That thread is here:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30910.0

It starts off discussing a different problem, but the discussion continues to forum organization.  Please do not discuss flaming new posters or anything like that here, unless it specific relates to forum organization.

The current suggestion is to use the wiki as a place to summarize and link to various threads on heavily discussed topics.  Actual suggestions would not be posted there (a wiki is not a good place for my dev notes to refer to -- if I want to come back to something in a few months, it might be gone).  Granite26 put together an initial mockup with an idea of how it might be done.

Another note:  Subforums are hampered by the broken search function (it won't search subforums from suggestions).  Having a few subforums for heavily-discussed topics that are pretty clearly their own thing like "magic" is possible.  As long as all actual suggestions remain somewhere on the forum, the system works for me, so whatever you guys think will improve your ability to continue discussions and build on old suggestions is fine, provided it is fully discussed and whatever objections are raised.

If there is no further movement on this topic, that's fine as well.  I am responding to a perceived need that has been touched upon in one direction or another by several people.  If these people are sufficiently interested, and there is further movement and something is created on the wiki, I will change this thread into a link to whatever that new construct might be for easy reference.

[Granite26]

I revised it a bit more to add the list from Fellwood's threads.

I also added in a symbol for linking to Eternal Suggestions Voting to indicate a given idea is on that list.

The goal for the page is that it should take someone a minute or two to skim the list.  I'd recomend a 5 repeat minimum to put a thread in the common area, and a 20 return minimum for the top area (20 returns on the keyword listed.)


What's the thought on a forum suggestion header that encourages necromancy for this particular board?  Toady, it sounds like you favor short and sweet, front loaded suggestions to long merits and flaws threads.  Would you prefer that someone with a 'here's a different way of accomplishing this' idea append that to a previous discussion or just start a new 'X has been discussed, but what about X WITH Y!?!?' thread?  Doesn't matter too much to us (although new repliers are just as bad as new OPs for repeating threads, IMHO)  Maybe encourage Necro-linking?  (Post a new thread but link to the old discussion in the OP)

[Mikademus]

Well, a few sub-fora on a selected few clear topics seems like a good way to start to me. I'd think that

* Magic
* Combat/Military

are two obvious candidates. We could start off with those and see as we go what other candidates, if any, are suitable.

[Neonivek]

We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow.

If I see any subforums there BETTER be significant number of people creating that suggestion. Dealing with forum EXPLOSION clutter is far worse in my mind then occasionally dealing with at most 3 magic topics on the first page.

I like the fact that when I go to the forums I can click anywhere I want to go without scrolling down. (Mind you... not quite anymore due to the Various Nonsense forum explosion... but I don't go there anymore anyhow for the that very reason)

[Kanddak]

You might want to take a glance at how this is organized: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Category:Commonly_Discussed_Ideas

That's a whole wiki category that indexes forum threads about ideas that are frequently suggested in that game. Right now people tend to cite the dev goals and say "yeah, that's already on there as Core1234" or whatever, but when you go look up Core1234, it doesn't have informative links to the places it's been discussed on the forum.

[Faces of Mu]

That's a good idea, Kanddak. How do they decide what gets it's own category? (there's a name for this in statistics, but I can't remember what it is. It's to do with multiple regression....?)

[Neonivek]

Anyhow I am back... Since I last posted 7 topics have new posts

They are
-Underground Diversity
-Surgery/Medicine
-Immigrant Requests
-Skills: Effects and skill transferance
-New Suggestion: Cleanliness Preference
-Iron Pyrite
-Racial Poison Resistance

Alright... So there we go... Those are the current Topics people are creating.

It is important to note.

As for Kanddak... Those arn't subforums to my knowledge and is a job for the Wiki and not Toady.

ERRR I wish I could be more constructive... Sorry

[Tormy]

We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow.

It's pointless to create a magic subforum right now, however imagine what's gonna happen when Toady will start to work on the Magic Arc someday. I suppose, that we will need to have a magic subforum when that happens. 

[Neonivek]

We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow.

It's pointless to create a magic subforum right now, however imagine what's gonna happen when Toady will start to work on the Magic Arc someday. I suppose, that we will need to have a magic subforum when that happens. 

Lets deal with it then.

Mind you... that when that happens the game will be far into Version 2 and the forums are bound to be popular enough to warrent forum splits at that time.

Also mind you... that is... Years away or possibly will never happen.

[Granite26]

You might want to take a glance at how this is organized: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Category:Commonly_Discussed_Ideas

That's a whole wiki category that indexes forum threads about ideas that are frequently suggested in that game. Right now people tend to cite the dev goals and say "yeah, that's already on there as Core1234" or whatever, but when you go look up Core1234, it doesn't have informative links to the places it's been discussed on the forum.

Issues I see with that:  The lack of keywords means that people will have trouble doing a visual search.  I have no idea what people are talking about in those.

Basically short descriptions and keywords.

The other key is strict up-front rules about what goes in.  Most of the previous linked list go down in flames when they collapse under their own weight.  Most suggestions don't need a listing at all.

[Mikademus]

We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user ...

What alternative-universe forum are you perusing? Have you noticed what kind of game DF is? People that would find "magic" too vague wouldn't be able to even start Dwarf Fortress, those playing this game tends to be a far cry above the drooling masses. Self-selection at its best.

... and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow. If I see any subforums there BETTER be significant number of people creating that suggestion. Dealing with forum EXPLOSION clutter is far worse in my mind then occasionally dealing with at most 3 magic topics on the first page.

There are quite a few number of good threads on magic and a fair amount of shorter ones. There are 300 pages of suggestions, you know. Having the threads about magic in one place would mean it  being easier to find them as well as being easier to see what has already been suggested and continue an existing discussion. That a thread (or topic) isn't at the front page atm isn't an indication that it doesn't deserve a sub-forum, in fact, in an highly active forum it could just the opposite BE a clue to that it would benefit from a sub-forum because it would reduce thread redundancy.

Also, as far as I see you're the only one talking about a "forum explosion", Toady mentioned "a few select topics" (or a wording to that effect) and I suggested two sub-fora that would be well populated. This seems reasonable and a realistic solution to the current level of the issue.

[Othob Rithol]

I'll throw my vote in for a few sub forums about key topics. It only makes sense that we can expect more productive discussion on a topic if all the references are collected in one place.

Magic and Combat are great choices.

Other topics that might benefit: Religion, WorldGen, Agriculture, Game Balance Issues, and anything Toady would like us, as the community, to brainstorm about.

I'm for anything that would help reduce the tension level of this forum.

Edit: now that I have had a chance to read some of the absolutely childish squabbling in the 3-4 threads Toady has redirected here, I know have to say: Toady we need mods. The only problem is that 99% of the people that would want the job are entirely unworthy of it. I can personally think of only one I would nominate...active in the community, knowledgeable about DF, cool headed, usually has something constructive to say, easy to get along with....but something inside tells me Granite26 would not want to be a mod.

[Felblood]

Edit: now that I have had a chance to read some of the absolutely childish squabbling in the 3-4 threads Toady has redirected here, I know have to say: Toady we need mods. The only problem is that 99% of the people that would want the job are entirely unworthy of it. I can personally think of only one I would nominate...active in the community, knowledgeable about DF, cool headed, usually has something constructive to say, easy to get along with....but something inside tells me Granite26 would not want to be a mod.

We'd be lucky to talk him into being head editor of a wiki, but we'd be very lucky indeed.

I, for one, would love to see the Index and Summary concepts grow to fruition under his capable guidance.

[Mikademus]

I have been moderator and admin of many places and the basic truth is: you don't want to be one. It is thankless and frustrating work, and imposes harsh limitations on your own freedom of expression. Also, you're damned beforehand because any intervention you make will piss someone off.

That said, this forum WOULD need some glorified janitors to split, merge and sticky threads.

[Neonivek]

What alternative-universe forum are you perusing? Have you noticed what kind of game DF is? People that would find "magic" too vague wouldn't be able to even start Dwarf Fortress, those playing this game tends to be a far cry above the drooling masses. Self-selection at its best

What forum in an alternative universe have you been to?

People lump ANYTHING and EVERYTHING into magic.

Thus it is too vague.

"Other topics that might benefit: Religion, WorldGen, Agriculture, Game Balance Issues"

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!

Agriculture is much too narrow

WorldGen is good nothing to say here other then it could get a better name since most/all aspects of World Gen leak into the game.

Religion isn't going to be dealt with for a very long time... It doesn't get enough posts yet.

Game Balance, Too vague and it will only cause Forum wars with "Balancing Arrows goes in Game balance not combat stupid! FLAME WAR!"