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Author Topic: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.  (Read 10139 times)

mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2009, 09:18:50 pm »

I know what your opinons are because you are telling them to me. It's not magic.

Gee, really?  Because it seems to me like you are telling me what my views are.  I mean, there's this:

No, you're trying to claim that the views of gays is equal to your views.

And there's your ridiculous assertion earlier that I was advocating for forcing churches to marry gays, even though I explicitly denied that fact.

...sure seems to me like you claim to be better informed about my views that I am.

SC, go to a gay rights rally some time if you don't believe me.  Listen to some gay rights advocates speak.  I can promise you, the subject of forcing priests to perform marriages isn't going to come up.  Not even a little bit.  What you are going to hear a lot of is talk of tolerance.

Please, don't imply that the gay rights community wants to overturn straight marriage.  Tons of the members of the gay rights community are IN straight marriages.

---

Imagine for a second if someone said to you "America wants to murder all the Muslims!" 
You want to defend America, so you reply, "That's not true.  99% of Americans don't want that at all!"  Would you be presumptuous to defend Americans as not be horrible, genocidal people?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:24:13 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2009, 09:22:14 pm »

No, you're trying to claim that the views of gays is equal to your views. You only speak for yourself, and only your experiences. You may be true, but I quite honestly dislike people thinking they represent the group.

Oh, please. This isn't "I represent the group." It's "I know enough about the group to generalize about it."

Why don't you try my experience. My experience is that I've literally known or met over a hundred gay people. My experience is that I am a member of the Human Rights Campaign, the single largest and most active gay rights group in the country. My experience is that I follow gay rights issues closely. My experience tells me that mainiac is probably correct and is not out of line to suppose that 99% of gays would agree with him that your suggestion that gays are trying to force priests to perform a religious ceremony that contradicts their beliefs is absurd, and a horrible misunderstanding of the nature of gay rights.

The argument is over if churches are allowed to deny someone the right to marry at that certain location. The church may claim religious freedom, but will that trumpt that of the person's right to marry at a location?

This issue is a joke. There is no "right to marry at a location". I don't know where you got that idea, but you're using to say that...

you are indeed forcing priests to bless gay marriage.

And that's offensive and distorting.
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Armok

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2009, 10:00:37 pm »

Please stop the flaming, it's no use, now to my post:

This thread is shocking me, I knew the US was medieval and mid-evil, but I didn't know it was this bad, it's absurd.

On the other hand, I'm the kind of person that think monkeys, household utilities, and fictional people should have equal rights, and that paedophilia or bestiality is ok as long as both parts consent. (which only the adult human ever do, but in theory I mean)
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mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2009, 10:17:34 pm »

Clearly, this man knows what he's talking about.  He is a god of blood.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Faces of Mu

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2009, 10:27:55 pm »

I know I've met some gay people who don't whole heartedly want equal gay rights. Actually my current partner and my ex both did not want the Australian Government to recognise gays so that gay couples could receive more pension as two single people. Incidentally, neither of them were on a government pay check. I am on government assistance as a student, and at the loss of money I want the government to recognise gay partnerships.

This brings up the point of the global standard. America has done a lot of great leadership over the last century and has influenced a lot of cultures around the world. While Mainiac and Jonathon S. Fox have been detailing the ways in which the USA does not have equality, Australia is still far far behind America in that there is currently no law recognising gay unionships, even for those obtained outside Australia. From my understanding women in Australia are sill paid far less than men, and racism is rampant in the community against Aboriginals, Asians, Indians, and even Sudanese (many of whom have migrated here for safety due to the absolutely shocking and traumatising events happening in their home countries).

If you want to sit on your opinion that it's all fair and good in America, then don't stop thinking about what it means to the rest of the world for you to continue standing up for these human rights (including respect to all, even when those who might not be offended aren't nearby to hear). The way the world sees and hears American's behaving actually can have a big impact on what happens elsewhere. And what is happening elsewhere is very far from perfect or resolved. There is much hurt going on right now, and the people who learn to be careful of how they use labels are doing an amazing job of easing the pain.
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mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2009, 10:44:46 pm »

Don't be so hard on yourself, visitor from the land down under.  Those problems aren't unique to Australia.  And I for one thought it was really cool that you guys elected a head hancho who was fluent in Chinese.  Being willing to communicate with people is a nice first step to... pretty much everything.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2009, 11:20:15 pm »

If we are lucky, America may be able to serve as such an example soon on the issue of gay rights. While we are not likely to see a wave of support for marriage any time soon, our newly elected President Obama has said that he wants to:

1. Repeal the law granting states the right to ignore same-sex marriages performed in other states.
2. Ban employment discrimination nationwide on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity.
3. Amend hate crime laws to include crimes committed against persons because of their sexual orientation or gender identity.
4. Repeal the law prohibiting gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military.

He also favors granting civil unions and guaranteeing adoption rights, but those are not issues decided on the federal level of government, so he has not promised anything in that area. He has supported nearly the entire gay agenda. I have high hopes for him.
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Faces of Mu

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2009, 12:13:11 am »

This is getting a little off the topic of PCness.

But that's interesting about employment discrimination based on sexual orientation. Our Australian Anti-Deiscrimination Act actually says that's illegal here. +1 to aussies, yay.
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E. Albright

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2009, 12:29:44 am »

Trying to jerk the thread back to its original topic (though I'm gonna fail due to the example I'll cite):

Many times the old representation is rejected because it is a horrible stereotype, or because it became loaded with negative connotations over the course of its time in popular use. These are excellent ways to drive people away from using the word or image. On the other hand, it is often the case that the old term or image is not actually offensive, but is merely less accurately descriptive than the new word. An example is the "many names for black people" that was brought up earlier in this thread, where most of the names aren't even offensive, just archaic, and every transition was a natural transformation of language in the context of its times.

Despite the arguments of those who would rail against it, political correctness is not the doing of a hostile censor or cabal of oversensitive reformers. The very concept of political correctness as a looming social pressure calls to mind some kind of vast left-wing conspiracy. But in reality, political correctness is a very modest thing -- it is the ebb and flow of social trends, the silent and gradual transformation of language and images. Political correctness is a pejorative euphemism for modern expressions that have supplanted older ones. It's what grownups use to complain about the steady evolution of modern slang.

And yes, the result is almost always for the better.

Here's the thing: you're describing PC language as if it was a natural phenomena, whereby people hear a neologism and adopt it into their idiolect without explicit outside influence. As a general rule, that's not how it works. There is a definite prescriptive tendency in PC language development; a neologism is coined, and its users actively attempt to supplant the current term with the new one. This differs from slang proliferation in so far as slang tends to be more frequently spread by passive means (someone hears it, and decides to add it to their idiolect) rather than by active means (a speaker attempts to influence others to add the term to their idiolect, generally by replacing an older term). There is also another difference in terms of how social pressure is applied to encourage conformity; failure to adopt a PC neologism is generally greeted with an explicit or implicit expression of moral judgment, whereas failure to keep one's slang up to the minute will be faced with social disapproval of their failure to conform, but their motives for doing so will not be impugned.

Having said this, I actually tend to be sympathetic to PC language trends, and have upon occasion played PC police by attacking terms loaded with horrible connotations and less accurately descriptive than the newer word. An example (emphasis added):

I don't want to ban homophobic language.  You are legally entitled to use it.  But know that if you use homophobic language, I will think less of you.

Here we have a nasty, archaic term that by all rights should be consigned to the linguistic dustbin of history, and supplanted by e.g. heteronormative.

"Homophobic" was coined with the explicit intent of suggesting that those it labeled suffered from a psychological disorder. I've very frequently seen it used in exactly this light, and those on the receiving end of the epithet often respond with the assumption that this is the intended meaning. Indeed, the last time I got into an argument over this term, on a 3rd-wave feminist blog where an anti-same-sex-marriage screed by Orson Scott Card was being eviscerated, one of the term's principle defenders was eventually pinned down to an admission that they preferred this term to the alternative foremost because it was viewed as highly insulting by the targets. Additionally, the term can be intended or perceived as a bludgeon to belittle the target as being a coward, to accuse them of being afraid of homosexuality. I think it's safe to say "homophobic" is loaded with negative connotations. Very much by design, in point of fact.

It's also less accurate than "heteronormative". Again, the term was coined to suggest its target was mentally unstable. Not that they held wrongheaded, evil ideas, but that they suffered from a pathological mental illness (the term was coined by an activist as a mirror to the APA classification of homosexuality in those terms; the APA ceased classifying homosexuality as such with 1-2 years of the term's coining, but "homophobia" lived on, obviously). Some people still use it as such. Some people, when it is applied to them, still take it as such. It is also used at times as an accusation of cowardice. Not as a denotation of prejudice against homosexuality, but rather as unthinking, uncomprehending fear of it. This will often result in the waters of a conversation being muddied by the target responding angrily that they're not afraid of homosexuality, they instead find it immoral or whatever (it was OSC's multi-paragraph insistence upon this point, that he couldn't be accused of homophobia because he had perfectly rational reasons for denying civil rights to homosexuals, that led to the aforementioned argument over the appropriateness and utility of the term).

Heteronormative, by contrast, is much clearer in what it denotes: "Of or pertaining to the practices and institutions that legitimize and privilege heterosexuality, heterosexual relationships, and traditional gender roles as fundamental and 'natural' within society"1. This is cleaner and less ambiguous. It is less likely that the target of the term will misunderstand what it means. The term is more neutral and focused on a structural level, making it less of a normative term and more of a positive description; it is unambiguously about bias and antipathy, not fear.

However, those fond of "homophobe" for its pejorative connotations will resist changing to a less archaic, ambiguous term - but so will those who view the older term as innocuous and unambiguous, as well as those who view the attempt to replace the term as a needless intrusion by bothersome hypersensitive meddlers who should be resisted on principle.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 12:35:38 am by E. Albright »
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mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2009, 12:35:07 am »

You make a good case.  I'll try to switch over to using hetero-normative.  Homophobic is generally more pejorative then I intend anywho.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Faces of Mu

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2009, 12:59:35 am »

Trying to jerk the thread back to its original topic (though I'm gonna fail due to the example I'll cite):


Heteronormative, by contrast, is much clearer in what it denotes: "Of or pertaining to the practices and institutions that legitimize and privilege heterosexuality, heterosexual relationships, and traditional gender roles as fundamental and 'natural' within society"1. This is cleaner and less ambiguous. It is less likely that the target of the term will misunderstand what it means. The term is more neutral and focused on a structural level, making it less of a normative term and more of a positive description; it is unambiguously about bias and antipathy, not fear.


Not that we are here to decide how the world will deal with these issues, but I disagree with "Heteronormative" being less ambiguous. As a social scientist, I take "normative" to refer to the normal curve. If interpreted this way, then if (this assumption based on figures I've heard but can't reference empirical data) 1 in 10 people are non-heterosexual, heterosexuality IS normative. Therefore, what point or argument would we be making by claiming a comment as being heteronormative? No different argument than saying they used words to voice the opinion. Additionally, heterosexuality IS natural in society. The definition given above doesn't emphasise the 'privilege' such comments give to heterosexuality enough for me to show another the negative connotations of their words.

Lastly, I'm confused about whether heterosexuality is fundamental to society. Could we not say that this is untested, given history so far? At least, the evidence to date says society has always had heterosexuality. I admit this is not evidence for causation, but causation isn't ruled out. That heterosexuality is NOT fundamental to society is an experiementally untested hypothesis. Therefore, the inclusion of this statement in the definition of heteronormative still creates an umcomfortable ambiguity for me.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2009, 01:06:07 am »

I agree that homophobic is a terrible word, and that we need a more, as we are saying, politically correct term. But I am also not exited about "heteronormative", if for different reasons.

Call me cold, but I hope to retain some inherent stigma with the new word, since that's what I, and I'm sure many others, would like to express when the word is used. My problem with "heteronormative" is that it sounds like a blend of heterosexuality and normality (okay, normativity, which has its roots in things being normal), and there's nothing bad about either of those things. It's almost a positive reference.

A scan of the criticism section under Wikipedia's Homophobia article offers a few more negative alternatives: "heterosexism", "homonegativity", and "sexual prejudice". I dislike the first two, though the last seems usable. It seems precise in that it accuses the person of prejudice rather than mental disease, is easy to say, and carries all the stigma of prejudice.
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mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2009, 01:07:52 am »

Darn, that's a good argument as well!  I can't tell who's liberal!

*mainiac pleads for forgiveness!*
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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E. Albright

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2009, 01:30:12 am »

My personal reason for preferring heteronormative over e.g. sexual prejudice is that it's in many ways a more inclusive term. It isn't just denoting sexual prejudice, but more broadly a desire to maintain rigid gender roles. Hence, it more readily refers to prejudice against transsexual or genderqueer individuals.

I do understand your point about it being too neutral-sounding. I disagree, as I tend to prefer to leave myself more flexibility in my language (E.g., "that's blatant heteronormative reasoning" if I'm being diplomatic, "that's nothing but vicious, narrow-minded heteronormativity" or somesuch if I want to be more aggressive), but that's largely a matter of personal taste.
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E. Albright

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2009, 01:56:58 am »

The definition given above doesn't emphasise the 'privilege' such comments give to heterosexuality enough for me to show another the negative connotations of their words.

I'll readily concede that the very brief definition I cited leaves a lot to be desired, but I'd argue that's more a property of its brevity (plus a desire to be extremely neutral, which is kinda obnoxious given that the term is attempting to describe prejudice) than anything inherent. A more drawn-out definition would tend to hit upon the points better (e.g.).

As to the ambiguity of normativity, I'll readily concede that it is in a technical sense. However, normativity is not a term I encounter in popular speech, whereas phobia is quite prevalent. However, I'll admit that it lends itself a bit too easily to transformation to "heteronormal" or such... and on a perhaps slightly odd (but I think relevant note) it doesn't provide an easily-voiced noun. "Heteronorm" is about the most concise sloganized epithet I can derive from it, and at that point the target had better be very well acquainted with the meaning attached to the term, else its surface form will at best puzzle.

However, having said this, I think careful usage is sufficient to attach meaning beyond the individual syllables to the term. It's long and it's clunky, but it's fairly precise about what it's referring to, and it's not as inflamatory as what it proposes to replace. To my eye, it'll serve as a perfectly good transitional term. I'm open to finding a "better" term for this than heteronormative, but I've yet to find one that pleases me more (or displeases me less). When I do, I'll switch from being a humorless scold of a prescriptivist pushing the use of "heteronormative" to a humorless scold of a prescriptivist pushing its proposed successor. And thus forever goes the dance of PC language evolution.
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