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Author Topic: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.  (Read 10151 times)

chaoticag

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On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« on: February 22, 2009, 09:22:42 am »

Political correctness, where to start? Do you think that everyone should be politically correct, and when do you think people are going too far? For example, take the phrase "racism"; at the time that racism was coined, people viewed humanity as being composed of various races but today, we see humanity as being made of various ethnicities. Does that mean that saying racism is now politically correct? Should we use ethnicism instead?
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Nilocy

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 09:37:14 am »

I believe there should be some sort of PC out there. But atm its just gone WAY to far. Everything is politically uncorrect, i mean aboslutely everything! Like where the lyrics for Ba-ba-black sheep were changed to Ba-ba-multicoloured sheep, because it might offend the darker skinned people of the world?! Who has ever taken offense to these sort of child nursery rhymes?!
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Kagus

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 10:13:05 am »

I just have to repeat this; it's my favorite quote on the subject.

"Political Correctness:  The belief that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end"


I think that political correctness, as it stands today, is utterly stupid.  I feel that the ONLY time you should do anything of the sort is when an individual has expressed a personal desire for it to be so.  Thus, you are spending a negligible amount of your time and/or effort catering to that one person who actually wants it that way, rather than spending a massive amount of time, effort and money catering to a bunch of people who really couldn't give a damn one way or the other.

The problem arises from people feeling the need to help those they feel are inferior to them, and who do so by feeling outraged for them.  You will find that just about all the claims of racism are not made by people of the supposedly offended ethnicity.


I do like having the relation between "race" and "ethnicity" expressed that way, though.  It seems one of the most common ways of practicing political correctness is to just add more syllables to the word describing something. 

This is probably intended to make the word more of an ordeal to say than it's worth, and so they just avoid the subject entirely.

Deathworks

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 10:45:05 am »

Hi!

While it is a good thing not to try to insult people, using formulae like PC has proven to be really counter productive.

In regard to feminism, a very valid movement I consider worthy of support, it has allowed people to both ridicule it and also eaten up a lot of energy activists could have used much better to foster actual equality. In addition, moving away from a pseudo-neutral term for professions and things has only resulted in highlighting females there more. Instead of taking females there for granted and making sure that they have equal opportunity to get the good jobs and good payment for their work, we just got those who get these opportunities highlighted, and thus actually tell everyone one: "Look, we even got female xxx!" And making language unnecessarily complicated also caused not only ridicule but also hate for those propagating such useless language change.

Another fine example are "Blacks" in the US. Well, actually "Blacks" isn't PC anymore, is it? We moved forward to "Colored", then to "Afro-American" followed by "People of Color" and who knows what the word will be next year. This example clearly shows that PC does not cause social change and can become really absurd if it becomes a purpose unto itself.

So, in the end, I am for less PC and more earnest and thorough humanist thinking.

Deathworks
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Fishersalwaysdie

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 12:21:00 pm »

PC correctness is useless, people won't hate you less for banning certain words, it can only make you feel less hated and that only lasts until you realize they actually still hate you.

Marking a word as a hate-word only gives it more meaning to those who want to express the hate.
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Assassinfox

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 02:49:20 pm »

My high school's mascot was called the Raiders and was visually represented as a Native American.  Unfortunately, that offended a lot of white people on behalf of Native Americans, so they caused a big hissy fit and the Native American image was stricken from the school.  A nearby university had a man in a Native American outfit who danced around at games as a mascot, but people threw a fit about that too and eventually the NCAA labeled the mascot as "harmful" and "offensive" and refused to allow the university to play in games until they got rid of him.  And then, my elementary school's mascot, the Warriors, was somehow deemed offensive for being a human being, so he was removed and the school's new mascot is the Wolves.  My junior high's mascot of the Knights is next on the chopping block.

What the heck?!  Seriously!  >:(

Yanlin

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JoshuaFH

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 04:02:28 pm »

I've actually never ran into PC despite living around spoiled, pretentious white people for years. My middle school years back even had a full blown Nativity Scene erected right in front of the school in full view of the busy main road.
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Strife26

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 07:59:22 pm »

A line that you will not see on wikipedia:
"Osama Bin Laudin is a terrorist."

Seriously, I posted a rant about the spineless website a while ago, but the forum went down as I posted and it was lost. Then the forum came back, and I posted a rant about the forum going down, guess what happened. Political correctness really bugs me, when Osama is clearly a terrorist.
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mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 11:00:17 pm »

Censorship is a valid complaint.  Political correctness on the other hand is usually an attempt to push false equivalence.  If you can't say something because it isn't "politically correct" then it probably shouldn't be said.  99% of what you hear about "political correctness" is hearsay that got pulled out of someone's ass along the way.  In short, it's an attempt to defend views without merit.

If you want to complain about censorship, complain about censorship, dammit.
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Faces of Mu

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 11:47:59 pm »

I think of all the posters here, Mainiac is the only one I seem to agree with - and that's IF I've read them right.

In my view, PC is about reducing the most amount of harm to people, not about pleasing the most amount of people.

Kagus, I loved that other quote you gave, it made me grin.

You will find that just about all the claims of racism are not made by people of the supposedly offended ethnicity.

In regards to this, though, I'm concerned you haven't thought this through. It makes me think you believe the fights for black rights were all fought by white people, and the fights for women's rights were fought by men. Is this accurate, or do you want to rephrase your statement?

Frankly, if it IS true that most claims these days are made by others, then I think "Thank goitre!". It means we've come to a time when the majority are willing to make a stand for the minority (probably a reverse of what it was like when the discrimination was first identified and claimed), and there's not much bad about that in my view.

There was a question raised by my partner recently about another person posting on a dating website about what they wanted. This other person specified "No blacks" in what they were looking for. My partner, in the middle of an online debate about this with colleagues, asked me if I thought this was racism. My answer was "Yes, it is racist, but not illegally so". People don't seem to understand the difference between legal and illegal discrimination as based on their anti-discrimination laws. As far as I understand it, who one has sex with can be based on discriminatory decisions, but it can't be considered illegal discrimination. There's a limit as to what anti-discrimination applies to.

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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 11:52:47 pm »

I have to join with Faces of Mu and mainiac in disagreeing with the mob here.

Political correctness is the politically correct cry of those who would sooner complain than learn and understand how and why their choice of words or images may be unacceptable in a certain context, offensive to groups that have suffered historical injustices, or otherwise socially awkward.

Critics of political correctness frequently use extreme examples of pseudo-censorship, often fabricated or greatly exaggerated, to discredit it. As an excellent example based on this thread, the "Baa Baa Multicolored Sheep" is a silly myth that has been perpetuated for years after a couple of daycare centers in the UK played with the lyrics to make them more fun and better teach colors. In reality, the suggestion by anyone that black people are offended by that nursery rhyme is both absurd and insulting. (Understand I am not accusing Nilocy here -- in fact, this point that Baa Baa Black Sheep offends nobody was mentioned in his post, and the rainbow sheep myth has been around for years since a spate of reactionary articles popped up on the topic in the UK.)

Another bogus myth of political correctness that is passed around is this idea of words or images being "banned". Except in very unusual circumstances, words do not get "banned". Remember the offensive Danish political cartoons a few years ago. Those were not "banned" anywhere across the developed world, despite a massive outcry and a fury of people rambling about political correctness. Actual censorship is rarely ever what people are talking about when they say political correctness.

So what is political correctness, really? Beyond all the cruft that gets glued onto it, the core is people complaining about the gradual transformation of language and images, when a new word or image comes up that supplants the old because it better captures the intent or tone of people who wish to express that idea. Once an old expression is abandoned in this way, it becomes socially awkward to use it. Why? Because nobody is certain why you would choose to use the old one anymore, and given that this is a sensitive topic to many people, choosing to evoke archaic language or offensive images on the topic is severely questionable.

Many times the old representation is rejected because it is a horrible stereotype, or because it became loaded with negative connotations over the course of its time in popular use. These are excellent ways to drive people away from using the word or image. On the other hand, it is often the case that the old term or image is not actually offensive, but is merely less accurately descriptive than the new word. An example is the "many names for black people" that was brought up earlier in this thread, where most of the names aren't even offensive, just archaic, and every transition was a natural transformation of language in the context of its times.

Despite the arguments of those who would rail against it, political correctness is not the doing of a hostile censor or cabal of oversensitive reformers. The very concept of political correctness as a looming social pressure calls to mind some kind of vast left-wing conspiracy. But in reality, political correctness is a very modest thing -- it is the ebb and flow of social trends, the silent and gradual transformation of language and images. Political correctness is a pejorative euphemism for modern expressions that have supplanted older ones. It's what grownups use to complain about the steady evolution of modern slang.

And yes, the result is almost always for the better.
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mainiac

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 01:24:20 am »

"Osama Bin Laudin is a terrorist."

To address this specific complaint;

You want the exact phrase, "Osama is a terrorist."  While we can all agree he is a terrorist, what does using a loaded word like that do to an encyclopedia article?  And how does it convey anything better then the first sentence of the article:

Osama, <various forms of the name>,
"is a member of the prominent Saudi bin Laden family and the founder of the terrorist organization al-Qaeda, best known for the September 11 attacks on the United States. Al-Qaeda has also been associated with numerous other mass casualty attacks against civilian targets."

Why is the loaded language you want more appropriate?
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Rilder

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 06:42:53 am »

(trolling)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 02:48:02 am by Toady One »
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chaoticag

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Re: On political correctness and whether or not it can go too far.
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 07:25:45 am »

The problem with words is once you say them, they cannot be taken back. Words are pretty powerful, they could start wars, end wars, end lives, save lives and get a job done if used right.

I don't advocate extreme political correctness, but using words that offends others is something that I find pointless and counter-productive.
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