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[ToonyMan]

I tested a HWG vs. a Medic at 3 meters from each other.



I made them both fire at the same time, one had a mini-gun.  The other a Blutsauger.


Guess who won?


THE MEDIC!  I honestly think The Blutsauger is the best weapon in the game.  It destroys anything.

[The Doctor]

It not so much destroys everything, but it makes you last longer so you can win a war of attrition.

[AlStar]

I tested a HWG vs. a Medic at 3 meters from each other.

I made them both fire at the same time, one had a mini-gun.  The other a Blutsauger.
...

The fact that the Heavy's main gun takes a second or two to start firing would definately put him at a disadvantage against the medic, especially one armed with the Blutsauger.

That's why I try to never stop spinning my barrels if I'm in known hostile territory - that couple of seconds can and will get you killed.


Do you guys have any favorite server that you play on? It'd be neat to play against you - plus, I've been looking for a good server for a while now.

[Jreengus]

I normally play on the Spa servers, All maps 1 normally. http://www.specialattack.net/tf2. Be sure to register on their forums so you can collect Spa points which you can then use to set the next map buy a spray permit or even reserve a slot. My name on steam is Jreengus Occured.

[ToonyMan]

I tested a HWG vs. a Medic at 3 meters from each other.

I made them both fire at the same time, one had a mini-gun.  The other a Blutsauger.
...

The fact that the Heavy's main gun takes a second or two to start firing would definately put him at a disadvantage against the medic, especially one armed with the Blutsauger.

That's why I try to never stop spinning my barrels if I'm in known hostile territory - that couple of seconds can and will get you killed.


Do you guys have any favorite server that you play on? It'd be neat to play against you - plus, I've been looking for a good server for a while now.

I meant they both actually fired at the same time.

[Sowelu]

I call shens.  Relevant TF2wiki pages:
http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Minigun
http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Blutsauger

The Blutsauger fires 10 needles per second.  If they all hit that's a gain of 30/second, that we can subtract from the Heavy's damage, but it seems very small honestly.

Heavy at point blank does 500-540 damage per second, medic does 100-150.  That's too obvious.  Let's back up to midrange where the heavy won't hit with all bullets.

Heavy: 50-300/sec, which puts the average at oh...175/sec.  Medic at long range: 50-100/sec, or 75.  Once you apply the vampirism, heavy is doing 145/sec and medic is doing 75/sec.  Heavy has 300 health, medic has 150 health.

So the heavy is doing very nearly twice the damage after healing is factored in, AND he has twice the hit points, all this at a range defined as "Medium range is defined as the main resupply door to the opposite wall on the upper level of 2fort."  AND the heavy can crit for what is essentially an instant kill, while the medic can't with the blutsauger.  Oh yeah and the medic has to reload in a prolonged firefight.

At long range, battlement to battlement of 2fort, heavy does 50-100 or 75/sec, modified to 45/sec, while the medic does 50-60 or 55/sec.  So the medic has a little advantage!  Except there's still reloading, and oh yeah, the syringe gun and presumably also the blutsauger don't always fire straight!  Plus the heavy still has 2x the hit points.

I'd be interested in verifying your results sometimes, but the math doesn't seem to stand up.  Even with the 1-second spin-up time, I would still expect the heavy to win against a Blutsauger wielding medic at ALL ranges.  I don't know how you got those results but they're so out-of-line I have to think SOMEthing went wrong.

[ToonyMan]

That's weird.  Maybe I was hallucinating.

[Sowelu]

If the heavy was firing off-center and not hitting with enough bullets, that could totally happen.  But either way the medic with blutsauger CAN'T kill a heavy in less than exactly two seconds...period, even at max damage.  And blutsauger never crits.  Max is 150/sec and heavy has 300 hp.  I think we've ALL been killed by a heavy in less than one second at that kind of range.

Oh yeah, other things:  Blutsauger clip is 40 shots, or four seconds of fire.  Medic carries 150 total ammo, or 15 seconds of fire, while the heavy carries 200 ammo at 10 ammo per second, 20 seconds of fire.  Wiki claims that the Blutsauger takes 1.6 seconds to reload...That actually seems a little bit high to me, but if it's accurate, that's crippling!

Heck, the heavy's SHOTGUN does 133-150 damage per second at point blank, and can fire for a little over three seconds before reloading.  I'd give good odds to the heavy killing a medic before needing to reload with shotgun vs blutsauger at short range, and definately winning as soon as the medic starts reloading.

Oh...Medics do have natural regen, but when they've recently taken damage it's only 1/sec.  So that doesn't change any results here.

[ToonyMan]

I remember that the medic had to reload once to kill the heavy.  The medic usually had about red health when he killed the heavy, but he was alive and the heavy was dead.  I...uh....I swear that's what I remember.

[Sowelu]

Oh hey...Was the heavy in question using the alternate minigun?  Because that does damage slower and might push it over the edge in some situations...

[ToonyMan]

Nope.




I think it was because a heavy is VERY inaccurate at even mid-ranges and the medic could survive long enough to kill him.



EDIT:  The health bonus for every hit is what makes the difference from live and death.  Wouldn't work with the default needle gun if I recall.

[LASD]

In a Medic vs Heavy situation, the Medic is usually circle-strafing and has it easy hitting the slow-moving revved-up Heavy. Whereas the Heavy must flail his crosshairs around trying to hit the strafing and jumping Medic. With a good Medic and a mediocre Heavy, the latter will soon be dead and the Medic will probably be in good condition after the fight, thanks to Blutsauger.

Sometimes when I'm at half life and alone, I'm happy to see a Pyro in mid-range so I can suck his blood and heal up, also when one manages to set me on fire, I'm quite glad if (s)he chooses to follow me as I can heal faster with the Blütsauger than the fire can hurt me.  Blutsauger is pretty much an upgrade in my eyes, there's just so many situations where it's useful.

Also, the 1,6 sec reload time sounds about right as it has caused me great frustration oh so many times.


P.S. The Sniper might get a Boomerang to replace the Kukri. He might even be able to throw it because they have already made a ranged melee weapon.

[Sowelu]

P.S. The Sniper might get a Boomerang to replace the Kukri. He might even be able to throw it because they have already made a ranged melee weapon.

OH MY GOD YES.  Except...that would be way too overpowered in the melee-only sudden death modes :x

[Yanlin]

Melee weapons work just like ranged weapons. Only they cut off at a very short range.

[Sowelu]

Well yeah, but you really think a half-skilled sniper with a boomerang isn't going to beat the tar out of, I dunno, a pyro with an axe that doesn't catch him off guard?  You're going to get a lot of free hits while they approach, well, probably one anyway.  I wonder what happens if you get out of line of sight to it, if you chuck the boomerang then run through a doorway...hmm.

I'm worried that it would end up being far weaker than the kukri, because when you throw it, you can't still keep swinging it around.  Many many less hits probably in the long run.

Still, this HAS to at least be a weapon they considered.