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[ToonyMan]

My Steam account I gave to my friend had the honor to be given the Primeval Warrior medal or whatever.  He told me over Steam and that was pretty cool, even though I didn't even get the game until Christmas '07.

This is old news, but I just remember because of Jackrabbit and Kinseti so I guess it's worth mentioning.  I still remember playing TF2 for the first time as a scout in Dustbowl.  Ten-Fifteen achievements sure are hard to get. 

[Shadowlord]

... No-ones has mentioned anything about the Rift items? I would have thought someone would have mentioned this fairly controversial promotional items. Anyway the problems people have is that the items don't fit the art-style- even less so then most other promotional, that the 2 games are unconnected, that they have stats (they will be available to all in a month or something like that, but that kind of destroys their purpose of showing people who like Rift) and that the 'Genuine' item quality now exists for people who got one from buying Rift (or trading with someone who did).

My problem with them was more along the lines of "You want us to pre-order an MMO to get TF2 items now?"

[ToonyMan]

What's Rift?

[Zai]

The items also kind of suck

The stats look pretty bad. The set-enemy-on-fire-on-hit Pyro axe seems rather useless in everything but Melee-only/Medieval matches, and even then it could still be bad. The Scout's mini-crit-against-burning-players stick requires a cooperative Pyro teammate to be effective at all.

So they seem pretty pointless (aside from melee fires in Melee-only/Medieval) to me except for their looks.

[Strange guy]

The recent patch removed the fact the fire of the volcano fragment didn't go out by itself and the sun on a stick went from dealing 135% to burning enemies to dealing mini-crits- which would be the same (other than not benefiting from regular crits/mini-crits from other sources) except it got a 15% less damage change instead of 45% less against non-burning. So basically a nerf for both of them, unless you wanted to hit non-burning enemies with the sun on a stick.

[Soulwynd]

Moving the discussion from the portal 2 thread to over here:

Attack the person rather than their logic, nice.
There was never any large amount of skill in TF2 and with the recent updates theres less.
You're trying to tell me that Natasha and the Sandman added skill to the game? The real skills came from team work and communication which was butchered when valved decided to blur the lines between the various classes.
I guess balance doesn't matter for the competitve community either who usually injects life into the game after the mainstream audience had it full.
I guess it doesn't matter that Valve backflipped on the design policies they worked years trying to prefect just to get some more money out of the casual gamers.

No, It's part of their logic and if you think there isn't skill needed, well, you're playing in the wrong places. I said it in this thread quite a few times, the server you play in makes a huge difference in your experience with TF2. I either play in competitive servers or pub servers where competitive players go to. It doesn't matter if you have a sandman or a natascha or even a valve developer one-hit-kill rocket launcher. Skilled people will own you. I'm not saying I'm a competitive pro, I'm just saying it's more fun to play with them.

I may be very biased on this, but I really don't see any crazy back flip there. The only item that I find really weird is the Razorback, but then again, it wastes the sniper's secondary slot, so. Plus whether people buy things or not doesn't make a difference to gameplay.

You seem to think everyone cares that you spent money at an online store. Some people want to play a game without either paying money to get weapons or spend years waiting to get the same weapons as everyone else.
As for the community. Its crap. Theres no skill left in it, I can join Tf2 and dominate whole teams which is sad. The community just wants more crappy weapons and hats which isolates new players from entering. The community is stranggling itself with its over all shitiness.
TF2 is NOT an MMORPG.

In closing: I wish to state I disagree with you sir. Also to inform that I hope never to meet you in a dark alley.

I've never spent money in the store and never will. Where the fuck did you get that idea? Don't go assuming things about other people.

You don't have to waste years, only weapons from other games aren't craftable and you can always trade. See, that's just whining you want things now instead of enjoying the game... Or not enjoying it, since it sounds more like you hate TF2. In which case, why do you even care?

Again, you're playing at the wrong places. You cannot expect any skill or fun if you go into a random pub server. It also doesn't isolate new players -at all- the vanilla weapons are just as good as any other item and depending on your style of play much better. The community is doing just fine as well and that whole TF2-MMORPG is extremely non-sense. I don't know if you go to the steam forums or not, but seems like you'd fit just fine in there.

And dark alley? Wtf? Weirdo.

Class balance.  Balance between items.

Its not about me, my skill, or the items I have, or how well I can use them.

I'm talking about class blurring, items that turn one class into a counter to its "counter class."

There is balance to TF2.  It doesn't need to be perfect, but they designed the game around "oh, that's why I died, I'll do this differently" and none of the new items allow for that.  There's too many combinations, too many choices, and too much "I can't counter that."

And you said it's not about your skill? There's nothing you cannot counter with skill. Seriously, come play with us in a pro/semi-pro server. I know from personal experience you can bring any weapon you think that fucks the game balance and people will hand your ass to you in a silver plate with vanilla weapons.

You know... I like diversity, I like options, I like combination, and I like choices... If TF2 had stagnated into only having the same old set of weapons and had to play them over and over and over, I wouldn't like TF2 anymore. It's the reason I was bored at CSS. I played it for a month and that was all there was to it. Not only that, but the community was whining about the updates when I asked them what they thought of it and if they would like some changes, more weapons. I don't mean this offensively, but it almost sounded like they were factory workers that only had to press a couple buttons and do something repetitive non-stop. It's very menial and really doesn't keep my interest for long.

[Zai]

If TF2 had stagnated into only having the same old set of weapons and had to play them over and over and over, I wouldn't like TF2 anymore.

I'd just like to say: I agree with this statement. I joined the game post-Scout update, pre-Spyper update. By the time Spyper came out, I was already waning in interest, but once it came, I played almost non-stop TF2 (well, relative to other games; I still did other stuff) for a month or two. I still feel the effects of that game-binge; I barely ever play now except after major updates or with weekly/spontaneous TF2 with DFC pals (a couple hours a week max). But every time a new major update comes around (class updates/Community updates), I start playing quite a bit again.

Having said that, the reverse is also true: TF2's weapon-release schedule (a flood in the second half of 2010 mainly thanks to the Polypack and Christmas updates (mainly the Christmas update; 13 weapons at once!)) has discouraged me from playing (I think because it starts feeling like it's the same old set of weapons since I just can't get the new weapons to drop). By the time each new major update comes, I still do not have many of the weapons from the previous major update (partly because I am not willing to go out of my way searching out trades with people that will trade reasonably, partly because I am one unlucky son of a gun; I am still missing 2 to 4 weapons from the Polypacks, and have less than half of the Christmas weapons, but I have many duplicates of old weapons).

It would be nice if there were specific achievements for every weapon to get them (sort of like there are for the Class updates) rather than having to depend on drops, trading, or crafting (which requires drops/trading anyway, as well as having to part with my virtual-hoarding tendencies).

[Soulwynd]

I think the crafting complements it very well even tho some values are sort of absurd, like the item set stuff, but others are reasonable.

I used to play a lot more, but with the summer, my computer has been overheating and so I haven't been able to play as much, plus I got busy with MNC.

[Levi]

I don't mind the new items, but the crafting/trading/drop system feels to much like work when I just want to play an FPS. 

I eventually quit partly because of that and partly because I felt dirty playing an FPS where people could buy weapons that other people didn't have. 

[Soulwynd]

They don't really make any difference in your effectiveness. They just mean you can play a bit differently or be more specialized in certain aspects. Plus they drop fairly often so you don't really have to spend any money.

I feel more sorry for people who buy weapons/hats just to have them. I mean, they're ridiculously easy to get so they're just wasting money due to the lack of patience.

Now, if you buy them to support valve and TF2 then it's cool..

Just today, I played for 2 hours and got 3 weapons and one desc tag.

[Derekristow]

Initially I was pretty heavily against the random drop system, because it felt like it took away the meaning in "earning" a weapon with achievements.  At this point though I don't really mind it, as forcing out awkward achievements for all these weapons, or worse, making people pay for them, would have worked out far worse in the long term.  With the combination of item drops, crafting, and trading people can get a loadout they desire fairly easily, so I don't have a problem with it any more.

[The Scout]

Got most of the new items already, and alot of old items which you can just craft into stuff you don't have or turn into hats. VS SAXTON HALE is fun if your playing with the Ullah Pool Caber.

[Frajic]

I actually like the flood of new weapons; you get so many more ways to play, ways to counter, ways to compliment... and it brings life to trading, that's for sure. I'm still a long way from getting all the items.

Now, some more arguments against the common complaints:
1: Community and game state. The TF2 community is alive and well. There are still thousands of servers up and running, and people are having fun.
2: Items, Mann-conomy, etc. The new items don't unbalance the game. Just because you have some shiny, special item you won't suddenly play a lot better. However, it might fit your playstyle better, or you might have more fun with it, which is essentially why they're there. And no matter what items you have, or how skilled you are, the most important thing is a good team that has all the things you need(sentry-destroyer, harasser, damage-dealer, medic, engie w/buildings, etc).
  2.1: And they give new players a lot of stuff to "unlock". New toys roughly every hour!
  2.2: Lastly, I can't imagine there are many people who buy all their weapons, simply due to the fact they cost a shitton of money. And it just shortens the time until you inevitably find the item.

Now let's game and have fun.

[Rex_Nex]

Is TF2 worth buying o.o

[Siquo]

Is TF2 worth buying o.o

Yes.

I hardly ever buy games because they quickly bore me. Now I just get scared if I look at the amounts of playtime that went into TF2. I don't know what this game has cost me per hour... a quick calculation says about 10ct per hour. Which is a laughable amount to spend on any kind of entertainment. Even street performers will kick your ass if you pay them 10 cents after watching them for an hour.