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[Graknorke]

Also don't buy items. Working within limits makes you end up better overall.

[Putnam]

Also don't buy items. Working within limits makes you end up better overall.

Not to mention that vanilla weapons are better for almost all classes the vast majority of the time.

[Cheedows]

People generally consider vanilla weapons the true essence of a class, while the others are just flashy weapons but not staying true to the class. I personally am a terrible player so I use other weapons, but in things like competitive play people recommend vanilla.

[Descan]

To me, the weapons are like sub-classes. A puff-and-sting pyro (degreaser and axtinguisher) plays as different from an ambush pyro (backburner) as a normal pyro plays from a heavy.

Just as you would switch classes to fit the situation, you should switch load-outs to also fit the situation.

The vanilla load-outs I use for my Spy (he's my main) and as a jack-of-all-trades, for when I don't know what I need to focus on or when I need to focus on a lot of different tasks.

[miauw62]

To me, the weapons are like sub-classes. A puff-and-sting pyro (degreaser and axtinguisher) plays as different from an ambush pyro (backburner) as a normal pyro plays from a heavy.

I think you misspelled "noob" there. The backburner is terrible because it nerfs the airblast. Airblasting is really important as a pyro.

[JoshuaFH]

I mean, stock items for certain classes is OK. Stock Demoman is extremely powerful. Stock medic is wholly viable. Heavy doesn't really miss his unlocks. Sniper just needs to click on heads, if you can do that then his unlocks are redundant.

A plethora of classes have amazing unlocks that define the class though. Like pyro, nearly all his unlocks are balanced around the axtinguisher, not the stock fire axe. Soldier with stock shotty is wholly viable, but he has so many secondary unlocks that are considered great sidegrades and completely change up his playstyle, like the gunboats for example. Scout is a tiny man MADE of unlocks, and Scout mains will gladly tell you that stock scout is something of a specialist class, only becoming more generalist when you have full access to his unlocks. Spy in particular, nearly every single unlock of his completely changes his playstyle, and nearly every one is necessary in order to adapt to certain situations.

I just want to throw that out there for the people saying to just use the stock items. Alot of each class's identity comes from their unlocks. It's ok to play stock as you slowly get item drops, then branch out and experiment as you find items you like.

[miauw62]

Well, the default axe is pretty shitty considering the main use of the pyro. Just using the stock items is good in many cases, but not in all cases.

[misko27]

Outside most melees (Demoman for some reason has a balanced melee, in that all his require some significant sacrifice on his part in exchange for their benefits. Why not use the Ullapool? Because it hurts you. Eyelander? The less health. etc. one or two others also have balance there) stock tends to be very versatile. I personally haven't heard many scouts whine about either the primary or secondary; they serve their purpose well.

Adapting is important, but the important thing about learning stock is it forces you to do core stuff. Stock pyro has a lot of hard time, but only will someone learn how to properly reflect and burn (Let me tell you this, flaming is a lot more effective then it seems if you actually lead your damned particles. I win flamethrower fights using degreaser against stock pyros because they just don't even bother aiming, or knowing anything about using it), which serves you well even when you switch to axt. Soldier as you said is just perfectly viable with his shotty, but at the same time teaches you to fight and run (learn to use the escape plan after learning how to rocket jump, or simply not put yourself in a stupid place.) Spy also has many unique unlocks, but again, and even more so for him, the stock will force ability to shoot, disguise, stab, cloak, and everything (and the sheer number of people who spy only with the dead ringer is damning).

Stock's benefit is that it lacks auxiliary things and forces you to do the basic things until you get good at them. Way too often (and I speak for myself as well), newer players think "not stock=better". The Shotty has reliability, decent damage, and is on 4 classes; skill using it is recommended, but it's just "generic". For a while I would never even consider the stock shotgun on any class. Perhaps if there was a large number of people who only played stock it would be a problem, but it tends in the other direction I think.

[Descan]

To me, the weapons are like sub-classes. A puff-and-sting pyro (degreaser and axtinguisher) plays as different from an ambush pyro (backburner) as a normal pyro plays from a heavy.

I think you misspelled "noob" there. The backburner is terrible because it nerfs the airblast. Airblasting is really important as a pyro.

Yes, because one of the examples I used is poor (to you), the whole point is blasted!

* Descan flips a table.

[miauw62]

Did I even say the point is blasted?  I just said that I find it a stupid example.

[jester]

Possibly because you dont understand the backburner?    Its hard to do right, but on the times when you do, a backburner can wipe out half a team and still get the odd reflect.  Ive got 2000 hours at tf2, so I think im beyond noobsville, but I call the backburner viable and potentially heaps of fun.

[WealthyRadish]

I've found myself playing almost completely stock lately. Granted, I stick to the trinity of scout/sniper/soldier mainly, where it's less important, but still. Medic is the only class where unlocks are relevant, and I guess spy.

-On scout, the best is still the scattergun, though the baby's face blaster is about the same. Force-a-nature is fun for goofing off, but really, nothing matches the scattergun's sustained damage. Secondaries are largely irrelevant and up to preference, as are melee items (unless you go sandman/guillotine against heavies or medic'd players).
-On soldier, the default rocket launcher is still the best weapon in the game (unless you count the mediguns, I guess). Gunboats if you jump all the time, shotgun if you have a medic all the time.
-On sniper, anything that headshots.
-On pyro, a functional mouse with a working m1, possibly an m2 if you want to master the arcane art of right clicking approximately near people to completely prevent them from moving. Also reflects. Degreaser isn't really important, and most of the time pyros could be doing as much damage just flailing around with a flamethrower as with the secondaries/melee. The main point of the degreaser is to get over that little pause of being unable to attack after using airblast, by using a secondary, so if you don't airblast, holding down m1 is just as effective. I used to play a lot of pyro, but as I realized just how painfully dickish airblast is to other players (particularly scouts), I stopped. The alternative isn't fun either, and I don't have a gibus to do it properly.
-On spy... Haven't played in ages. Right click to turn invisible, or right click to turn invincible and invisible, your call.
-On demo, almost anyone can use the stickybomb launcher well enough, grenade launchers less so, loch and load if you feel like being a dick to light classes, especially on servers with damage spread. Demoknight's fun, but very rarely better than stock.
-Medic... crossbow's the best right now, choice of mediguns, and ubersaw. Stock medigun is the only good stock item.
-Heavy... I only ever play shotgun heavy, but stock minigun is still probably the best.

[Greenstarfanatic]

Possibly because you dont understand the backburner?    Its hard to do right, but on the times when you do, a backburner can wipe out half a team and still get the odd reflect.  Ive got 2000 hours at tf2, so I think im beyond noobsville, but I call the backburner viable and potentially heaps of fun.

I also personally kinda like the Backburner, as, well, having spent most of my time playing TF2 on a laptop with no mouse, I've gotten used to, and rather good at, playing with a touchpad. I've spent most of my time as pyro not airblasting at all or doing it minimally, so having a strong damage flamethrower is extremely helpful. It's all about adapting your play style to fit your playing environment.

Then again, Pyro isn't one of my most played classes, and for a good while, I spent most of my time on custom servers, playing Randomizer and Freak Fortress for whatever reason. But my point still stands, that people can still play a great pyro without airblasting.

[generalpie]

Then again, Pyro isn't one of my most played classes, and for a good while, I spent most of my time on custom servers, playing Randomizer and Freak Fortress for whatever reason. But my point still stands, that people can still play a great pyro without airblasting.

Yeah, you can play a good pyro without airblasting, but doing so helps to extend your ability to counter other classes. A backburner pyro is automatically very damage focus, and due to the specific nature of the crits, should play defensively, waiting for an enemy push and maneuvering with Powerjack to get around and score the crits, but because of the +150% cost to airblast, hes now hilariously ineffective against the hard-hitting classes(Demo, Solider, sometimes scout), and he cant counter a sentry at all. The backburner presents itself with a massive trade off, in order for the pyro to be effective, he has to rely heavily on the crits, and more-often than not is forced to hide and wait for enemies to appear and hope they dont notice him. Personally, I used to use the backburner as my primary, back when I didnt actually know how to play pyro, nowadays, I find the inability to airblast as a trade-off that isnt worth it at least, unless your playing defensively, with some form of support to help, and if you are playing defensively without support you might as well use the Phlog, you lose the specific situation crits, combined with MM or Flare, you can build Mmmph quick and use that.

-On scout, the best is still the scattergun, though the baby's face blaster is about the same. Force-a-nature is fun for goofing off, but really, nothing matches the scattergun's sustained damage. Secondaries are largely irrelevant and up to preference, as are melee items (unless you go sandman/guillotine against heavies or medic'd players).

I hear this a lot but its rather un-true for me. The Scatter is the best, in terms of consistent damage, but the gimmicks of the other guns, can be effective when they're used right
Baby-Face for example, I play it more defensively until my boost is 100%, alongside it I use the cleaver and sandman, it allows me to fire sandman, by the time the ball has reached the target, if ive charged down the path of its trajectory, im 25% of the way to the target by the time that the ball hits, by the time I toss the cleaver 50%, and by the time I can get my baby-face out if I've missed, im 60%+, and can easily 2 shot a sitting duck.
As for the Force-a-Nature, and the new Soda Popper, I was described to it by a Pyro player, which helped enlightened me. The point of the 2 guns aren't to be better at killing, but at out maneuvering. The ability to dodge a enemies rockets, frags, arrows, flames, and bullets can allow you to stay alive, and whittle at their health, and it should be used on 1v1's, or even 1v2's. The Force-a-Nature gives you the ability to confuse players by making them fly, and giving you a 3rd jump, allowing you to get over even the tallest players, whereas the Soda Popper, turns you in a helicopter, negating the prediction-airshots that soliders and demos would attempt at doing, alongside that, it allows you to reach literally new heights on maps, giving him free reign to pass un-noticed over a entire push's heads and assault from the back or go for the cap.
The Shortstop is a weird little primary. Its great for scouts who play near the push, and can have medics heal him quick, but the "downside" is the knockback from weapons. At least, its a downside if you dont know how to use it. You could, for example get a heavy to fire his minigun at you, from the battlement of 2fort and, without jumping, make it to the otherside of the map. Its great for scouts who like guerrilla tactics, the ability to escape based on the enemies damage can result in you pulling them even. And, so long as your secondary is different from a pistol, you dont really run out of ammo for it. All of that, alongside the 4 shots it has that fire in VERY rapid sucession allow for a quick hits on large targets, and effective results.
Once I get home and have the time to type, I'll say what I have to say about scout secondaries and melee.

[Knick]

Possibly because you dont understand the backburner?    Its hard to do right, but on the times when you do, a backburner can wipe out half a team and still get the odd reflect.  Ive got 2000 hours at tf2, so I think im beyond noobsville, but I call the backburner viable and potentially heaps of fun.

I've got to agree with this.  Backburner is excellent in certain situations.  For example, Hightower, when you can drop down off the central tower and crit the enemy at the cart.  Any map where ambush possibilities are high.  That said, it is still a situational weapon.  On hightower, I might start with a bb, but I will switch to vanilla flamethrower, to take advantage of environmental kills.