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Author Topic: Project  (Read 19747 times)

Cthulhu

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Re: Project
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2009, 09:41:19 am »

I don't believe people go to hell for being jerks.  I believe you go to hell for denying that Jesus died for your sins, or for rejecting that sacrifice.  Either way, it's a willing choice, and hell is eternal.  There is nowhere in the Bible that suggests it isn't, and thinking it's mean won't change anything.

As for people like Hitler, if he had died naturally and asked for forgiveness(Meaning it, not just saying it), he would have gone to heaven.  There is no point where you lose your humanity, and the only point where you're beyond redemption is if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, which is generally something you'll know you're doing(An example is the pharisees' saying that Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub, suggesting that Jesus was a demonic entity).  Saul persecuted Christians mercilessly, but became one of Jesus' faithful disciples.
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Strife26

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Re: Project
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2009, 09:14:43 pm »

I may have been unclear, if Hitler had asked (and made an attempt) for forgivness, he may have found redemption. I'm assuming he didn't.
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Samyotix

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Re: Project
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2009, 07:26:29 am »

1 - Is Intelligent Design a valid scientific theory? Why or why not?

Look up the definition of science!
(Or read up on Science Theory). Science, especially natural sciences like physics etc, never claim that something is "definitely true"; they offer a theory. Any theory should include a test to break that theory; an experiment designed to prove it wrong.

There are other factors such as Occam's Razor: In science, the theory which needs the smallest amount of assumptions is considered best.


ID basically takes scientific explanations of the world, and adds something utterly ludicrous which many people feel the need to belive in (superhuman beings, deities, demons, etc) as "creators of all that". This ignores the fact that we very much understand how the world works nowadays: We have a pretty good understanding of how the quantum world works; we can look at cosmic background radiation that tells us a lot about how this universe formed; we know how the universe got its various elements (helium and hydrogen came around after the big bang, when energy levels decreased enough for particles to exist. Anything heavier, including 99% of your body, was created in supernovae.)

Why add a "designer" to all that? Of course it may be fun to fantasize about people living inside black holes, or super powerful alien creatures who are stupid enough to abduct and torture farmers from Kentucky, or something that somehow existed before the universe formed and/or caused the small asymmetries which created protons ... Basically, it's speculation.
And since it does not offer any test or experiment to prove or disprove this hypothetical "designer", we can safely say that it is definitely not science, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying (though he may not be aware of that due to his religious ideology)


2 - Is evolution a valid scientific theory? Why or why not?

Darwin noticed that one species had spread out and specialized in various ways; his theory about how the fittest tend to survive and multiply has since been used with great success in e.g. biology, genetic analysis etc.

(Statements like "Humans are descended from apes" or "darwinism means we should just shoot beggars instead of feedign them" are gross misunderstandings. a) modern humans and apes have a common ancestor (which in turn evolved from a small rat-like mammal but that's off topic). Some apes have like 98% DNA the same as ours; yet a 2% difference means that our common forefathers split apart a really long time ago. Social Darwinism is mostly just a pseudo-scientific for cruelty and murder, since it ignores the fact that humans are herd animals with inbuilt empathy.)

Evolution is a scientific theory in that it has been (in its modernized form) tested innumerable times, and all of the evidence found (genetic analyses of various species etc) supports it.


3 - Do you consider evolution to be a theory, or a fact? Why?

It's a theory I believe to be true.

4 - Do you consider Intelligent Design a scientific way of thinking, or mainly a religious way of thinking? Why?

As stated above: ID has nothing to do with science. Science makes theories about stuff and offers ways to test whether this theory is better than the previous onesl. ID basically says "there's something we can't understand or look for but I know it's there".

Compare this with Dark Matter: We KNOW that noninteracting dark matter exists, though we cannot observe it and have no idea what it it, really. Buzt we know it is there, because we know how gravity works, and we see that most galaxies move in a way that indicates a large mass around them.; we know it's not the normal stuff (neutrons and protons etc) because we can look for them.

So Dark Matter is a scientific theory: It is currently the model that best explains how the universe behaves.
ID is a simple lie from religious fanatics who distrust science: An untestable, basically ridiculous assumption that explains nothing and complicates everything.


5 - Should evolution be taught in public schools? Explain.

Of course, since schools ought to convey knowledge.


6 - Should Intelligent Design be taught in public schools? Explain.

Of course not, since it is not a school's job to tell fairy tales.


7 - Should Intelligent Design and evolution both be taught alongside one another? Explain.

Of course not. Schools should teach knowledge, not focus on myths and fairy tales.

ID might be mentioned in Biology as an outdated curiosity. Just like in Geography, the teacher might explain that Mount Olympus was considered the seat of the gods in Ancient Greece; or in maths the teacher could mention that Kabbala sought spirituality in mathematics. Schools should nowever not teach Kabbala or ID.


8 - Is it possible to believe in a divine being, as well as Evolution?

Apparently yes, though I as a rather fervent atheist don't really understand how. I've met a religious astrophysicist who keeps waffling about how amazingly well everything fits together on the level of quantums and atom nuclei and the various constants in the world ... size of the atom, weight of the electron type of stuff, if any of these were different we would not be around.
The same guy then adds that while it is of course okay to fantasize about reasons for this "fine tuning" or "precision adjustment" of natural laws, but that there is nothing scientific about that.

IMO it is a decision the human makes: Even someone working in physics may decide that they WANT to belive in something divine, or demons and gods and prophets and stuff, in order to be able to cope with life as a human being. That is a perfectly okay choice -- as long as the scientist does not claim to be able to "prove" his beliefs, or adds an utterly ridiculous theory to all of science and yells "you can't disprove me so I'm right" as ID "theorists" do.

Humans are multi-faceted. IMO most sane people accept scientific facts. At the same time, they will refuse to believe what their spirit guide, priest, shaman or whatever tell them, but also refuse to totally reject religious teachings because they find comfort there.
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Samyotix

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Re: Project
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2009, 07:30:42 am »

BTW, I find it amazing how fanatically religious large parts of the US are. Teenagers who put up "God" or "Jesus" as their idols on their twitter page? Creationists, in this century and one of the most advanced nations on earth? Un-expletive-believable.

But then, while Europe had revolutions and the Enlightenment and the evolution of modern science, the US (especially the rural US) had largely puritan villages and not much else. It seems logical that being centuries behind in development would leave large traces of mediaeval thinking (such as creationism) in the population.
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MoonDancer

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Re: Project
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2009, 01:18:33 pm »

Okay...I'll give it a shot.

1 - Is Intelligent Design a valid scientific theory? Why or why not?
        No, it is not. Intelligent Design has not been proven by science (to my knowledge). Besides it's more of a leap of faith...so to speak. Could it be possible? Yes, but there is no way to prove it.

2 - Is evolution a valid scientific theory? Why or why not?
        Yes, because evolution has the scientific data to back it up. Just look at the Galapagos Islands for instance. 

3 - Do you consider evolution to be a theory, or a fact? Why?
        I think evolution will always stay a theory. How could something like this be proven with out experimentation? IMO pictures are enough to make it a theory, but not enough to make it a fact. Certain aspects of the theory would have to be proven in order to make it fact....and I don't think the world is ready for that.

4 - Do you consider Intelligent Design a scientific way of thinking, or mainly a religious way of thinking? Why?
        Intelligent Design can not be proven scientifically. It is purely a religious way of thinking...this is JMO of course. Now if someone were to present me with scientific evidence that Intelligent Design did happen then I would consider changing my mind, but until then....

5 - Should evolution be taught in public schools? Explain.
        Yes, it should. Evolution is a scientific theory and all science should be taught. (see number 7)

6 - Should Intelligent Design be taught in public schools? Explain.
          Yes, I believe it should. (see number 7)
 
7 - Should Intelligent Design and evolution both be taught alongside one another? Explain.
           Yes, I believe that both should be taught. Teach both and allow the children to decide what they believe in. Yes, I know it's not going to happen in public schools because religious values get in the way of having an open mind.

8 - Is it possible to believe in a divine being, as well as Evolution?
           Yes, it is very possible....but I'm a Pagan. I'm not going to state what I do and do not believe unless anyone is interested. I'll just leave it at this....just because you belive that their is a God and/or Goddess doesn't mean you can't believe in Evolution....and just because you believe in Evolution as a whole doesn't mean you have to agree with every single part of it.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 01:44:17 pm by MoonDancer »
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Project
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2009, 03:26:26 pm »

>.>

I'll bite too, but this severely edited from its first form (which wasn't very nice, in retrospect).

Still, your questions are a little lopsided in favor of evolution... but that's understandable given the class you are taking.

Also.  Define which type of Evolution you are talking about.  As near as I can remember, there are three of them.  Only one of which is controversial.  I'm making the assumption that you are talking about macro-evolution: the change of one kind into another.


8 - Is it possible to believe in God, as well as Evolution?

Fixed.

Yeah.  Answers in red.

[edit] Here here for dissenting views!

-(e)EP

...thats not fixed, there are other beliefs with divine entities that aren't 'god.'

Well, I go to Australia, are schools in America rougher or something?

Actually, yes, from what I've heard from all Aussies I've talked to, American schools have higher standards than Aussie schools. Whether or not it's true or just a general opinion is yet to be determined.

...wow

@Torak:  Here here for being tolerant of what others believe.  And, for your information, I consider myself to be pretty moderate about what I believe.
-(e)EP

When you replace divine being with god when quoting another persons, thats not exactly tolerant. It's actually rather disrespectful to religions that don't refer to their entity as 'god.'

Anyways, this is going to be hell to compile because people neglected the "Please don't debate over this" part in the OP. Either way, data has been gathered, project in two days, three other forums to compare and present about, nothing from this point forth will be taken into the project.

To those of you that responded, thank you for your time, it's appreciated.
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Vlynndar

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Re: Project
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2009, 02:15:23 am »

If you will allow me an off-topic question,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Project
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2009, 03:34:02 am »

Pulled a Fenrir, as someone else dubbed it. Deleted his own account.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Project
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2009, 10:40:40 pm »

I believe you go to hell for denying that Jesus died for your sins, or for rejecting that sacrifice.
I hate how people say that instead of simply not believing Jesus was magical and saved our souls, atheists are 'rejecting his sacrifice'.
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deadlycairn

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Re: Project
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2009, 10:52:21 pm »

Well, from a Christian point of view. Jesus DID die for your sins, thus saying you don't believe he existed, let alone saved your souls, kinda counts as rejecting his sacrifice. He did it, you refused to believe in it.
I'm a christian, but feel free to try and convert me to whatever you believe - you just gotta give me something more convincing than what I've already heard. (My opinion is that current scientific theories regarding the evolution of life and the big bang are a little bit shaky, and closer to belief in the RNG than real science. Of course, thats just my opinion.)

...Oh no, I'm gonna get flamed at now aren't I...
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Cheeetar

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Re: Project
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2009, 10:58:10 pm »

Well, to me, people saying "reject his sacrifice" is people saying "We all know Jesus died for our sins and is the son of God, but you are an asshole and don't thank him for it".
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deadlycairn

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Re: Project
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2009, 11:51:56 pm »

Fair enough.
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Jude

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Re: Project
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2009, 12:04:39 am »

Strife, if you think Jesus is God, then why would you be joining the army?
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deadlycairn

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Re: Project
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2009, 01:24:37 am »

Strong sense of duty?
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Jude

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Re: Project
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2009, 02:16:57 am »

Yeah but Jesus explicitly said and set an example that you're supposed to love your enemies as opposed to kill them
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Oh Jesus
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