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Author Topic: A survey on rationality.  (Read 5073 times)

Bromor Neckbeard

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Moh-rality is what I say is right, and immorality is what I say is wrong!
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 05:42:34 pm »

1.  Rational means "logical".  It means thinking intellectually rather than emotionally.

2.  A belief is something somebody thinks is true, whether it's actually true or not.  I BELIEVE that Dwarf Fortress will be finished before I get too senile to play it, but I don't know this for a fact.

3.  Morality is a personal or social code of conduct which details what is "right" and what is "wrong".

4.  They ARE, certainly.  Should they be?  I'm not sure.  I'm inclined to believe that a mature enough society could create a set of laws based solely on rationality, and further, I'm inclined to believe that such a set of laws might well be superior to the laws we have now, but I don't know this for a fact, and I also believe that there is NOT any such society on our Earth at this time.

5.  Yes.  Edgar Allen Poe referred to this as "The Imp of the Perverse".  George Orwell referred to it as "doublethink".  It is quite frequent for somebody to think, "I know I shouldn't do this, but I'll do it anyway."

6.  Unfortunately for society, humans are inherently selfish and emotional creatures.  Judges are human just like the rest of us, and therefore are vulnerable to acting irrationally or even stupidly.  It is possible for a judge to be impartial most of the time, but it's not easy.  As I understand it, that is part of the reason for their extensive training.  I don't believe it's possible for a real human being (rather than, say, a movie or comic book character) to be impartial all of the time.  However, it's not necessarily harmful for a judge not to be totally impartial.  He can think whatever he wants about a case as long as the judgement he hands down is in accordance with the law.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:18:08 pm by Bromor Neckbeard »
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 05:46:42 pm »

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)
"Rational" Is a subjective state of mind when one believes that they or someone else is behaving within acceptable standards.

2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)
A "Belief" is confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof

3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)
No, Morality would be closer to the above definition of "Rational".

4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?
Laws and legal matters should attempt to be impartial to any particular morals, as they exist to serve the people and not to serve a particular viewpoint. In practice though it's nearly impossible to be that objective.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)
It can be done depending on the circumstances. But it's not an easy thing to do.

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?
No person is infallible. Though a judge should attempt to be as impartial as he can
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Servant Corps

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 06:01:31 pm »

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)
consistent with or based on or using reason

Quote
2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)

any cognitive content held as true

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3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)

Yes. You hold it as true.

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4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?

Um.

Laws and legal practices exist solely to enforce the dictates of the leadership, or the community. I don't quite know why it should enforce any particular system of morality, altough I would greatly prefer it if it would support my morality system, I don't quite see why it should prefer my morality system over that of the leadership.

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5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)

Yeah, pretty much. If a person is afraid of the consquences of his action, he can lie and cover up his beliefs. Or further, he may seek to compromise his ideology, disregarding his beliefs.

Quote
6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?

Judges exist to interpret the law, to say what it says. The law is vague, but that's their job to determine what is society's dictates and what society wants, and what the law says.

Indeed, most people will disagree on if the judges are impartial. But that should not really matter at all. Regardless on if you agree with the judges' ruling, the judges exist solely as a way to END disputes. If you seek to contest a judge's ruling, by calling the judge's impartility into question, you are continuing the dispute. The debate should end. The judge's word is final.
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mainiac

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 06:10:18 pm »

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)
-Having a coherent reason for any beliefs which are not self evident and being aware of the assumptions made when they are not self evident.  Additionally, one must be aware that one's beliefs or assumptions may wrong and what seems self evident is not true, but not despairing.

2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
-A belief is a opinion which we consider it beneficial to treat as being true.

3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)
-Yes, many people believe in moral codes because they believe this belief will produce beneficial results (results may vary, in terms of what they expect.)

4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?
-Laws should be oriented towards some goal.  Sometimes, this goal is moral, sometimes not.  Many moral standards are considered worth adopting into law.  I hold the belief that laws should enforce morality only where there is rational support for that moral standard.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)
-When trying to act without disregard to a belief, we will sometimes succeed and sometimes fail.

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
-They will sometimes fail to be impartial but sometimes succeed.
Do you believe they should be?
-Judges must exercise some form of judgement.  It is their duty to see when the law applies and when it does not.  They should not decide to ignore the law due to an outside concern.  However, they should, when they rule it necessary, overrule the meaning and/or spirit of the law due to factors which they believe renders the existing standard incorrect, especially in the case where the meaning of the law violates the spirit.
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Nilocy

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2009, 09:24:13 pm »

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)
The ability to make clear cut decisions without the silly emotions.

2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)
Is something you must think is true no matter what. "I believe that that orange is orange".

3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)
Depends, if you believe something to immoral then it is, if not then it isn't.

4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?
I think laws and legal practices shape our believes of whats right and wrong. Different countries under different governing system believe in different things. Then again, laws should be good for the majority of people and aim to apply to every single person out there.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)
Yes, if confronted with overwhelming evidence to suggest that their belief is wrong they may want to change.

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?
No judge can be impartial, because all Judges are human. We all have a different set of moral codes that apply differently to different people. Emotions will be a part to play in a judges desicion no matter what.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2009, 11:22:43 pm »

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?

Rational choices are choices that are make sense in light of a person's situation, instincts, and beliefs. This is a very broad definition that covers the vast majority of all human behavior, even that which most people consider "illogical". An addict that continues to take dangerous drugs even though they want to stop is being rational by my definition, because they have sensible reasons for this failure to act in what they believe to be in their own best interest. An action need not be logical to be rational.

2) How would you define a “belief”?

A belief is an assertion that a person is confident is correct. They don't have to be absolutely certain, willing to stake their life on it, just confident enough to act on the belief in everyday situations. A person's knowledge and philosophy are both based entirely on their beliefs, or more specifically, what they believe is true about the world, and what they believe works in life. The emphasis of science is in the formation of useful and non-obvious beliefs about the world.

3) Would you include morality under this definition?

Morality is explained by each person through their beliefs, by necessity. But it is an abstract that is not inherently defined as a set of beliefs. If you believe, for example, that God defines morality, that would mean that if you are correct morality is not based on belief. Nonetheless, it would still be your belief that God has defined morality in that way. So morality is perceived through belief, but it is not necessarily a belief in itself.

4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?

Yes and no; laws and legal practice should be a melding of the views of the society. It is up to the people of that society to decide under what system these laws and practices should be made. There will always be imperfections in the way the system we create operates, but ideally we would endeavor to consistently adhere as closely to aggregate popular opinion as possible. I personally believe in some restrictions: Measures that significantly reduce the freedom of discourse or that are hostile to minorities are cases
where I wouldn't want "tyranny by majority" to rule. But aside from some of these caveats, I'm willing to set aside my own system of morality as a basis of law in favor of using a more common one.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?

There's no reason a person would ever do this, as this would be acting with complete disregard for their knowledge, experience, and worldview.

It is entirely possible to betray your own principles, or to do things that you know are in violation of your beliefs, however. David chose to walk through a wall, knowing full well that he would fail, and smacked into it painfully. But, that is because he has a tendency to be playful and experiment, personality traits developed through his experiences. Alice decided to commit suicide, knowing that she was violating extremely strongly held religious and moral beliefs, though she fortunately reconsidered. Yet even her initial decision was informed by her current state of mind and her perception of her circumstances.

Both David and Alice actively and knowingly decided to act against very strongly held beliefs, but their choices were not made with complete disregard for their beliefs -- rather, they have conflicting beliefs, or conflicts in the patterns of thought and habit arising from their beliefs, and when forced to take action they resolved this by betraying or ignoring some of them. They both agree in hindsight that they were "acting like idiots", but they were not acting with complete disregard for their beliefs.

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases? Do you believe they should be?

Even two good Judges will not necessarily make the same decisions. Each one will take to the courtroom their own life experiences in the form of unique beliefs. The difference is that a bad Judge will hold their own life experience as more important than the arguments presented, while a good Judge will hold the arguments presented as more important than their personal experiences. A poorly argued case, or an ambiguous and difficult issue, can easily result in varying decisions.

So no, perfect impartiality is not possible or necessary; it is, however, a desirable ideal. If a Judge believes strongly enough in the correctness of that ideal, their bias toward impartiality may be significantly stronger than any bias they have relevant to the case, and that is more important than the fact that they cannot be perfectly impartial.

Jury trials exist in part because we do not place our faith in the absolute impartiality of Judges.
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Gantolandon

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 06:08:12 pm »


Quote
1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)

Process of thought is rational when it is based upon facts (not beliefs) and conceived using (mainly) logic. At least it should avoid any common fallacies and be open to criticism.

Quote
2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.

Considering an assertion to be correct, regardless of contrary evidence or lack thereof. Basically an irrational process of thought.

Quote
3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)

Yes and no. Morality is beneficial for the society as a whole and it is propably the reason it developed. Even if it stems from belief, it has a logical reason to exist.

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4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?

It should be a reflection of the society's own morality to be effective. As for a particular system of belief, I can't give an unbiased answer. It would be today's humanistic morality with some minor alterations.

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5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)

I don't think so, unless in life-threatening situations, relying on instincts. Or intoxicated.

Quote
6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?

I don't think it's even remotely possible.
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Ignoro

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 06:52:26 pm »

I can't say anything more useful than what has already been said, but here you go:
1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)

Rationality, as in agreeing with reason.

2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)


Confidence in an idea.

3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)

No. I would include morality under the particular beliefs in question, and whether or not an action is rational under those beliefs. There's no absolute morality you can really define.

4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?

Laws and legal practice should stem from similarities in it's people's various moral systems. It would include much of my own.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)


All the time to be able to adapt.

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?


While they're supposed to be impartial, it's impossible for a man to be perfectly impartial. I don't believe a Judge is ever 100% impartial, but desirably they should be.
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puke

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2009, 08:38:19 pm »

sounds like your professor has been reading last quarter's Daedalus, and building his assignments from it:

http://www.mitpressjournals.org/toc/daed/137/4

or maybe its just a common rhetorical discussion.
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Grek

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2009, 01:42:34 am »

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)

Relating to rationalism, a system in which truth is found by applying deductive reasoning to axioms such as X=X, P=1 and If: A=B and B=C, A=C. This does not mean sensable, as you can have senseable ideas through empiricism and stupid ideas using rationalism.

2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)


A statement that one hold to be true.

3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)

Your can have beliefs about morality and what constitutes morals.

4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?

Ofcourse I think everyone should follow my morality. It wouldn't be my morality if I didn't think people should act that way.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)


They can, but it is profoundly stupid to do so. ie; "I should avoid death", "Jumping off of a cliff would induce death", "I should avoid jumping off of cliffs"

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?


Judges can be impartial, if they apply reason exactly and have a well made set of laws to judge with. I cannot qualify the second question. I would like my judge to be impartial if I like the laws, but I would like him to ignore the law if his judgement will produce a more just result.
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Splendiferous

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 11:44:27 pm »

I'm pretty sure he already did his survey, guys.
 ::)
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Aqizzar

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 04:28:19 am »

Actually, I gave the speech Monday morning.  After writing it, on Monday morning.

Yes, in another of my patented last-minute ass-pulls, I stated reading through the surveys I handed out in class at 3:30AM.  I finished my script at 7:05, drove to class, and did a rehearsal in my head on the walk across campus.  Delivered it five minutes after walking into the room, and went two minutes over time with excellent delivery.

Shamefully, I must admit I've only skimmed through the stuff you guys have posted here.  I'll read through it all soon though, and probably use it in my next speech.
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a1s

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 06:31:17 am »



1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)


2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)


3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)


4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?


5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)


6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?
let's see...

1) The term "rational" means that the object is a result of logical thinking. interestingly enough, while 'rational' implies that the basis of such logic should be sound, it does not require it. So what [object] exactly is rational is different for different people.

2)a belief is something that you think to be true, without testing it. A note of interest is that what most people consider "facts" (f.e.: earth being round, electrons flowing from minus to plus, anyone becoming president), are in facts their beliefs, as they never conducted the experiments necessary to prove this.

3)I would be reluctant to include morality under that definition, as not all people think morality to be right, even if they are a minority.

4)
(what exactly does 'reflection' mean? I'm going to assume the question was "Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a derived from any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?")
yes, I believe that laws are derived from systems of morality (this could be just one system, but with any longstanding judicial system this would be unlikely). Furthermore I believe that it would be extremely hard to produce a system of laws not related to any morality, as laws serve to facilitate systems of values (what is needed or unneeded by society) which form the basis of systems of morality.

5)A person can not disregard their actual beliefs. however they can:
a)change beliefs
b)they can disregard what they claim (or even believe) to be their beliefs in special situations. They will still be acting out part of their belief system though.

6)Judges can not be "impartial at all", nor are they expected to be. Indeed if all the judge's decision were exactly what the law says, with nothing added, subtracted, interpreted, or chosen, her work would be meaningless. Hypothetically...
Assuming that the cost was no object, and judges just had a nominal position, just so they could get a paycheck (and are not expected to benefit society), they can be made impartial by holding them in isolation chambers with only law textbooks of company all their lives outside of trials (and of course the judges will not be usable for any future trials that have anything in common with previous trials). ;D
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eerr

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Re: A survey on rationality.
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2009, 01:25:34 pm »

Actually, I gave the speech Monday morning.  After writing it, on Monday morning.

Yes, in another of my patented last-minute ass-pulls, I stated reading through the surveys I handed out in class at 3:30AM.  I finished my script at 7:05, drove to class, and did a rehearsal in my head on the walk across campus.  Delivered it five minutes after walking into the room, and went two minutes over time with excellent delivery.

Shamefully, I must admit I've only skimmed through the stuff you guys have posted here.  I'll read through it all soon though, and probably use it in my next speech.
cool, theres some fascinatingly vague questions.

1) What does the term “rational” mean to you?  (Either a definition or interpretation is fine.)
thinking in a way that encorperates most things, to form your plan.
certain forms of insanity can be mostly rational

2) How would you define a “belief”?  (This does not imply that “belief” and “rational” must be distinct.)
(This also need not be a religious question, but that is of course applicable.)
belief- an idea that you think is true, or want to be true, or others think or want to be true.
I don't believe god can have a belief because i believe god does not exist.

3) Would you include morality under this definition?  (If not, can you shortly describe why?)
morality, belief and practicality are 2/3 exclusive for certain... situations.
a morality is what you want to be true, and a belief is what you think is true.
practicality  is what really is true.


4) Do you believe that laws and legal practice are or should be a reflection of any particular system of morality?  Would this be your own?
yes, many people have good morality, and i want most of what those moralitys contain to govern the world.
my own? i've put great effort into my own morality, but I haven't used it or tested it since middleschool (in college atm) as it governed situations not covered in everyday life.

5) Do you believe a person can choose to act with complete disregard for their beliefs?
(This does not necessarily mean against their beliefs, but would naturally include the possibility.)
yes, they use practicality, and ignore, bend, or break their belief.
if they make spectatular exceptions through the belief system, then it can both defy and remain totally compatible.

6) With those statements in mind, do you believe Judges can be impartial to all, or even any, cases?
Do you believe they should be?
yes, judges who truely care about maintaining a fair and balanced system can remain completely and entirely impartial.
untill they realize that our System of justice, like any practical item, is imperfect.
following the system to the letter, or following your heart to the letter will lead to either great atrocity, or great injustice.

judges shouldn't remain completely impartial in all cases, nor should they ignore completely impartialy in all cases.

they must find balance, favoring justice.
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