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[GlyphGryph]

I've been thinking about it a bit lately, and I've come to the realization that the basic DF system is very similiar to the FUDGE basic combat system - with adjective based skill levels and attributes, the way wounds are handled in combat and the dislike of HP systems, even the whole "legendary+4" thing.

Of course, FUDGE is a pretty loose rule system that's built to be a basis rather than an end all, and I certainly came up with a number of fudge-type systems designing my own games before I ever came across it, and it is somewhat "open source" and freely available, I was just wondering if there was any direct inspiration - does anyone know?

Beyond that, does anyone here use the FUDGE system for anything else?

[Capntastic]

I doubt it is.

[Sareth]

ummmmm..... what is FUDGE?

[GlyphGryph]

It's a pen and paper RPG system. A generic one, like GURPS, but without being super boring and time consuming like GURPS is.

The last release (I think) was 1995, and the first one was some time in the 1980s, and it was pretty popular among many of the RPG crowd who weren't a big fan of the heavily mechanical math-based systems that were (and still are) popular in the mainstream.

As a game designer myself, I know games aren't generally created in a vacuum. If FUDGE wasn't an inspiration for his system, it would be interesting to know which systems, if any, were.

Clearly its nothing like the mainstream D+D style RPGs that are the forefather of most modern jrpgs and crpgs. Its something different, which leads me to believe he, at the very least, has been influenced by some sort of alternative rp systems.

[Kardos]

If anything, knowing nothing about FUDGE, even when it was created, FUDGE copied DF.  But then again, that's DF for you, god of games.

[Ampersand]

The edition of FUDGE I am familiar with was published in 1995. In many ways, Dwarf Fortress's skill and combat system is very similar to the system FUDGE uses.

http://www.fudgerpg.com/fudge.html Check it out here.

[Toady One]

Neither of us have heard of FUDGE.  Damage-wise, if I had to pick, I'd say the Friday Night Fire Fight stuff from Cyberpunk 2013 (I think 2013, I remember playing that instead of 2020, though not sure) had the most impact among RPG damage systems, though movies are a much greater influence here.  We had some violent little rpgish BASIC games that had bp wounds prior to playing Cyberpunk, I'm pretty sure, though I don't have the file dates to check and it's hard to remember back that far now.

The general desire to get away from numbers and toward adjectives has been there since our early-mid 90s stuff (BASIC dragslay had a few numeric stats and C dragslay had no numbers, which puts it around 93-94, maybe), but I just chalk that up to wanting more immersion and I can't think of a specific influence there in any medium (unless you count wanting it to sound slightly more like written fiction).  All the 80s games we used to play were either DND or like it, I think, though I don't remember them all.  If a game like Sword of Aragon or Wizard's Crown used adjectives, that'd definitely count for something here.  We played a bunch of them.  After around ~1992 or so the influence of video games and RPGs drops off dramatically, as we were mostly doing our own thing then and didn't buy as many games and didn't roleplay as much.  We played Wrath of Nicodemus (1987), and that had BP damage at least, though we didn't play it until a few years after that came out, so it is probably in the same category as Cyberpunk with the wounds, I think, pushing us in that direction after some initial experiments of our own.  I definitely remember the limbs being chopped off and so on, so it was memorable anyway.

[GlyphGryph]

Wow, thanks for responding. I love getting a look behind the scenes at what works influenced designers I like. It's interesting to see examples of convergent "evolution" as well.

And now, having spent some time looking into them, I want to try out the cyberpunk games and see how they compare ruleswise to shadowrun... the Cyberpunk system does seem to have some interesting things going for it. I'll have to check out Wrath of Nicodemus too.

I think the "influenced by movies" and "wanting it to sound more like written fiction" things were main design considerations in fudge and similiar systems, as well.

Anyways, thanks again! Interesting stuff.

[Toady One]

Come to think of it, I think seeing the armor coming off of the different body parts in the arcade game Gladiator (1986 I'm told) was also formative, in terms of seeing something besides status bars/hp/one-hit-you-die in an early game.

[thvaz]

It's a pen and paper RPG system. A generic one, like GURPS, but without being super boring and time consuming like GURPS is.

GURPS basic rules could fill a single page, sir. I do concede, however, that character creation is a lenghty process to those unfamiliar with the system.

[Jackrabbit]

I always thought GURPS was just a joke made by Paul of loading ready run. Imagine my surprise.

[LumenPlacidum]

It's a pen and paper RPG system. A generic one, like GURPS, but without being super boring and time consuming like GURPS is.

GURPS basic rules could fill a single page, sir. I do concede, however, that character creation is a lenghty process to those unfamiliar with the system.

That's why I make a set of almost-finished characters for my players to choose from when I GM a game of it.  Then they fill in the last small fraction of points that define the little roleplaying quirks they want to introduce to the concept.  Works wonderfully.

[thvaz]

That's why I make a set of almost-finished characters for my players to choose from when I GM a game of it.  Then they fill in the last small fraction of points that define the little roleplaying quirks they want to introduce to the concept.  Works wonderfully.

Yeah, there is this concept in the 4th edition, it's called templates. Almost like D&D character classes, though not stupid.

[Ampersand]

Yeah, well. Fudge lets you make up skills for your characters on a whim. Chutzpah, Basket Weaving, Eyeball Compression Resistance.

[azrael4h]

And here I thought I was about one of the only ones who remembered Wrath of Nikademus; Phantasie III. It did have a body-part damage mechanic, but relied on typical hit points for general damage as well. The BP damage mechanics generally were used to limit characters (lose a right arm, you couldn't attack, break a head, you were out etc...).

I wish my C64 disks still worked, I have it for DOS, but the graphics suck in comparison. For what it's worth, the game I've been working on has BP damage as well, inspired entirely by Phantasie III; I had the mechanics done long before I'd heard of DF.

If y'all can track it down, and can stand very poor graphics (green, black, magenta, and I think brown only, and poorly drawn in the DOS version even for the mid '80's) PH3 is a pretty decent old school game. The C64 version has vastly better graphics, more colorful and better drawn by far though. I think it had better sounds as well.