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How should libraries be set up

Single Giant library workroom. Takes a bit of set-up but once done is done.
- 90 (40%)
Specific Library sections. Books are in the library and the menu is managable.
- 111 (49.3%)
Generic library sections with free floating books. Messy, but flexible.
- 19 (8.4%)
Other: Describe (keep in mind the limits of modding)
- 5 (2.2%)

Total Members Voted: 224


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Author Topic: Civilization Forge 3.0  (Read 228117 times)

Anathema

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #990 on: May 14, 2011, 01:00:57 pm »

That and no trader would buy that many socks unless they could sell them somewhere at a good enough mark up to make the trip worthwhile. So flooding the market with socks might work one year, but you'd have to do something else the next year or you won't sell any. I imagine that you'd also have to sell them at a lower cost to convince the merchant to take so many.

Supply and demand is, indeed, a whole 'nother problem that I hope Dwarf Fortress doesn't implement anytime soon - I love trading my precious stone crafts to the gullible merchants year after year.

I mean of course it would make trading more realistic, which is a good thing, but it's a pretty drastic change - it'll force everyone to rethink their strategies for dealing with caravans.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:03:06 pm by Anathema »
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Anathema

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #991 on: May 15, 2011, 03:50:19 am »

So I did some testing, saving and backing up a new fort just before speaking to the first liaison, then seeing what they brought with the second caravan depending on my import requests - keeping everything but the import requests as constant as possible. I ran 4 tests, twice asking for powder and twice for bars.

It seems apparent in all tests that they'll bring at most 4 of any particular item; 4 bars of mithril, 4 bags of green vitriol powder (10 units per bag), etc. So really if importing superior metals that you can't make on site is your primary goal, you'd be best off requesting everything, bars and powders alike; but if you have to choose:

40 green vitriol powder and 40 blue vitriol powder works out to 140 Emen Aren if I understand the alchemy correctly (5 green = 5 Emen Aren, 2 blue + some alum = 5 Emen Aren). So assuming you have sufficient truesilver, wood or natural saltpeter, and sand for alchemy jars, then you can import 140 Emen Aren a year and alchemize it into an average of 28 mithril bars. This is about enough to fully outfit two dwarves.

Obviously this is better than just importing 4 mithril bars, but if your aim is to get anything better than crucible steel (i.e. any of the alchemical metals), then you can request 28 bars of superior-to-crucible steel metal (4 each of mithril, orihalcum, void crystal, and the 4 elemental metals).

So I guess it depends - importing bars gets you 28 better-than-crucible steel bars ready to use, although the other 6 varieties aren't quite as good as mithril, and 3 of them are limited as to what you can make them into (i.e. incendium only makes weapons). Importing powders instead allows you to make 28 mithril, the best bar that can be imported, although it depends on plentiful truesilver and other reagents on site, not to mention the whole alchemy process. I can see importing powders (or whatever other reagent one is missing) being practical if you discover your map has plenty of everything but that one reagent, otherwise it would seem simply importing bars is better.

Again you'll probably just want to request everything, any bar you can't make on site and any alchemical reagents you lack, you'll probably get 4 of each item.. and no matter what you request, it'd be far better to find a site that already has everything needed to make mithril. The 4-item limit hamstrings a fort that tries to rely on trade for metal, outfitting 4 dwarves a year (ideally, if you get 28 bars and enough powder to make 28 more) just doesn't seem like enough.

Ah, and this may seem obvious, but I ran another test to confirm it: requesting any kind of stone is a very bad idea. Try asking for truesilver, chalcanthite, etc., and you'll get 3 or 4 stones that take up most of the weight limit and they barely have room for anything else.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 04:12:08 am by Anathema »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #992 on: May 15, 2011, 09:32:09 am »

If you give the caravan hefty surpluses, that is less of a problem. Once yhey start bringing extra animals, weight is a non-issue.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #993 on: May 15, 2011, 02:55:17 pm »

True. And if they bring elephants or Land Striders as their animals they can carry a huge amount of stuff. But generally stones are a bad idea.

I think it'll be better once you can order amounts of stuff. Put in an order for 10 bags of each of the powders you need and with a decent truesilver stock you can trade silver crafts for alchemical powders and keep the mithril for your troops. Not a bad trade arrangement for the fort.

In the long run I think it'll work out ok. In the meantime you can also get tons of metals just by melting down all the weapons and armor your enemies leave behind, which sort of upsets the balance a bit anyway.
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Anathema

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #994 on: May 15, 2011, 08:12:53 pm »

If you give the caravan hefty surpluses, that is less of a problem. Once yhey start bringing extra animals, weight is a non-issue.

I gave them enough of a surplus the first time around, that the second caravan (the one I based my tests on) brought 3 giant beetles instead of 2. Even with 3 beetles, they were able to bring only 3 stones, and 3 powder bags - we're talking 6 items total on 3 beetles, absolutely nothing else. Asking for just powder instead got me 8 powder bags plus a ton of other random stuff using up the extra weight. Even if they brought 6 beetles, that's.. not very many stones. I still think asking for stones is a bad idea :P

Now if they used elephants or land striders instead it'd be a different story, but for some reason the dwarves always seem to use giant beetles in my CivForge experience. Other races sometimes bring better pack animals, but since you can't request what they bring, it just results in that much more cloth..
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 08:16:15 pm by Anathema »
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Thundercraft

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #995 on: May 15, 2011, 10:50:22 pm »

electrochemistry...
...Won't allow you to directly smelt aluminum by way of the Hall-Héroult process, but it will allow you to separate alkali metals like potassium and sodium from their hydroxides. You can use hydrochloric acid to turn alumina into aluminum chloride, and after carefully dehydrating it, you can then react the anhydrous aluminum chloride and sodium/potassium to yield metallic aluminum. The alkali grabbed up the chlorine from the aluminum, leaving the poor old aluminum behind.

I put this out because it's long bugged me that while most of the minerals (which aren't completely made up) are geologically plausible, native aluminum is not. Aluminum is never found naturally in metallic form; it's is just too reactive. With this, you can have your expensive aluminum, without needing a bogus natural mineral type.
Yes, the availability of native aluminum also bothered me.

As for the chemical extraction of aluminum, I remember thinking along similar lines years ago, when I was in high school. I found the concept of a strictly chemical production alternative to the Hall-Héroult process to be interesting. Considering how abundant aluminum salts and minerals are in the Earth's crust, I thought at first that it might allow for even cheaper production of aluminum.

But the problem with using hydrochloric acid or other reducing agents is how cost prohibitive that would be. And then there's the issue of disposing/treating the end products. Such a method would not be cheap on an industrial scale, even compared with the hundreds of thousands of Amperes consumed in industrial aluminum electrolysis cells.

Still, I could imagine a society of industrious dwarves who might be able to produce the chemicals and minerals needed, especially if aluminum is valuable enough to warrant the costs and effort. Considering that they most likely butcher lots of animals for food and leather, why couldn't they save the stomach contents from butchering and distill to make hydrochloric acid?

I do hope Mephansteras considers adding an alchemical reaction for producing aluminum and removing the possibility of finding native aluminum.

That said, under Production and Refinement, the Wikipedia article on aluminum mentions a new production method:
Quote
Compared to most other metals, it [aluminum] is difficult to extract from ore, such as bauxite, due to the energy required to reduce aluminium oxide (Al2O3). For example, direct reduction with carbon, as is used to produce iron, is not chemically possible, since aluminium is a stronger reducing agent than carbon. There is an indirect carbothermic reduction possible by using carbon and Al2O3, which forms an intermediate Al4C3 and this can further yield aluminium metal at a temperature of 1900-2000°C. This process is still under development. This process costs less energy and yields less CO2 than the Hall-Héroult process...

I was thinking a custom magma-powered furnace could be modded for this new process. But in-game, magma's temperature is only 1,111°C, so it does not seem realistic (on the surface). Wikipedia says magma is usually in the range of 700°C to 1300°C, so 1111°C seams a reasonable median. Then again, there are a lot of material properties in DF - including temperature - that are unrealistic.

Consider the melting points for iron and steel:
  • Pig iron melts at 12106°U = 1170°C
  • Iron melts at 12768°U = 1538°C
  • Steel melts at 12718°U = 1510°C
In real life, cast iron melts somewhere around 1100°C to 1375 °C, steel melts at about 1400°C and wrought iron (malleable iron) melts around 1500°C. But how can a magma-powered Magma smelter achieve those temperatures if magma is only 1111°C? Is it the fuel added to the reaction?

Even more extreme is the Magma glass furnace, because in-game glass has a melting point of 2000°C. And no fuel is needed for the reaction. Taking that into consideration, the 1900-2000°C temp range to use the new, non-electrolysis method of reducing aluminum actually seems plausible.

Perhaps dwarves have exceptional furnace technology and an advanced (for a pre-industrial society) understanding of thermodynamics? Or maybe they use magic?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 10:52:03 pm by Thundercraft »
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Wyrm

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #996 on: May 17, 2011, 06:26:18 pm »

Oh, yes, the alternative way to extract hydrochloric acid — stomachs of critters. CF already has a way to produce hydrochloric from sulfuric acid and ordinary salt (which is why hydrochloric acid's alchemical name was 'spirits(distillate) of salt'), however. I would have to think carefully about how one would mod stomach-derived HCl into CF.

As to in-game magma not being able to smelt the stuff its supposed to smelt, the real stuff is quite often ~3000 K up, owing to the orange glow it takes on (blackbody radiation) from volcanoes. I think it was fudged for that reason.
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Angle

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #997 on: May 20, 2011, 08:40:28 pm »

Maybe you could use a bar of Incendium as a power source?
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utuki

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #998 on: June 01, 2011, 04:50:32 pm »

It seems i have hit weird bug - moody dwarves always ask for blazing incendium (4 times now i think, they didnt have preference for it) instead of just metal bars. but when they get it in forge it burns down anything else they bring :(
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Mephansteras

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #999 on: June 02, 2011, 10:07:46 pm »

Hmm. Odd. It shouldn't show up that often as a required metal.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #1000 on: June 03, 2011, 07:00:38 am »

Have you considered how you're going to use the new features in next release?
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Mephansteras

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #1001 on: June 03, 2011, 06:09:40 pm »

Only a little bit. Life's been pretty hectic lately, so I haven't had time to do much with dwarf fortress at all. But I've been reading the dev logs and I've got a few ideas percolating. I want to make sure I do something interesting and unique to Civilization Forge, but I haven't decided what that's going to be yet.

But it might involve a revival of the old stone guardians...
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Judarud

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #1002 on: June 04, 2011, 12:47:54 pm »

can you play with other races in fortress mode or just the dwarves
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Mephansteras

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #1003 on: June 04, 2011, 03:25:21 pm »

I don't have any versions at the moment that have any other playable races, but it's not that difficult to make one of the others playable instead.
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Wes

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Re: Civilization Forge 2.41 - DF31.25 update released!
« Reply #1004 on: June 07, 2011, 11:19:52 pm »

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but for some reason when I have my dwarves do alchemy instead of putting the resultant products into jars they just leave them as piles in the workshop. Do you know what's causing this?
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