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Author Topic: Criticism of a nation is equal to criticism of a ethnic group within that nation  (Read 26358 times)

Servant Corps

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* Servant Corps sighs.

I do not like being flamed, but at the same time, I saw something so annoying, so...disgusting, that I cannot refrain myself. I realize it's better to vent here and get my ideology in order rather than rant somewhere else. Here's my rant.

This is an article in Jersualum Post which talked about anti-semitism, and its relations to criticism of Israel. Now, I am somewhat pro-Israeli. Maybe not as pro-Israeli as, say, an Israeli. But more pro-Israeli than my friends, I can state that. I love the two-state solution, I usually try to explain Israeli actions (and feebly try to defend them), and I want Israel to stay alive.

Which is why this sentence jars me.

Quote
"An imaginary watertight compartment separating Israel from the Jewish people is as improbable as trying to uncouple the notion of China from the Han Chinese people or Turkey from the Turkish people."

So, if Turkey attacks the Kurds, I can't call Turkey out on it because I'd anti-Turkish? I can't state that China is attacking Tibet, because doing so would mean that I'm anti-Han Chinese? There's no way I can ever criticize Sudan's actions, because I'd be anti-Sudanese. In all three cases, I would be an irredeemable racist, an evil man, who should be executed for my thought crimes!

No! It is possible to seperate China from Han Chinese, Turkey from the Turkish people, and Israel from the Jewish people! It must be possible, otherwise...gah.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:27:28 pm by Servant Corps »
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chaoticag

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The magic word is administration.
You can be prejudiced against the Isreali administration, the Chinese administration or the Turkish administration.
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Deathworks

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Greetings!

I completely share your thoughts about this argument and it is one of the reasons why I have so many problems with the policies of Israel - if in doubt, they seem to draw up anti-semitism in order to denounce anyone who asks questions about their handling of the UN, the Geneva convention, human rights, and what not.

As I think I mentioned in the holocaust thread a little while ago, discriminating a group of people just because of their religion, "race", sex, or whatever is completely intolerable. It does not matter whether the victims are Jews, Muslims, Palestinians, Turks, Kurds, Germans, Russians, Polish, blacks, women, homosexuals,... any kind of inherited guilt should have no place in a civilized society. We are all humans and we are all equal - there is no superior "race" or inferior "race".

Therefore, I can not agree with anti-semitism or racism.

However, at the same time, I personally believe that the policies of the Israeli governments over the decades have been rather inefficient, with the latest Gaza incident being just another evidence of how much forsight is lacking there. I do not believe that I am anti-semite or anything, just because I believe that bombing cities will not end the terror - something that the so-called ceasefire and the continued attacks by the Hamas terror organisation have confirmed, I dare say.

Personally, I consider placing Israel there where it is now to be one of the historic mistakes of the UN, but now, after 60 years of unending warfare, I guess discussing this point is rather mute. Thus, even while I think it is based on a fundamental mistake, I believe it would be best to have a solution that brings lasting peace to Israel and its neighbours. So, while I reject the current policies of Israel, I do not challenge its right of existance. Putting it bluntly, I just wish they could clear up their act.

Deathworks
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Servant Corps

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Thank you. If a position appears, well, semi-reasonable, then it should be fine. If I want to condemn any nation, I'll just throw the word "administration". That should avoid any accusation of racism.

Um, I don't want this to degenerate into a flame war, so, hm. I hope that this topic, er, ends. Likely won't happen but...
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Il Palazzo

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Damnit, I was going to post a rant, which would certainly start a flamewar, so instead I'll just comment the article with a single word: HYPOCRISY! For Jebus' sake.
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Neonivek

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It is quite easy to criticise the government (or effective government) of a country without really saying much about its people.

Afterall in most countries, even a democracy, the government is controlled by a fraction of the population who goes at great lengths to control/limit the ability of its people to affect its decision process.

Besides... even IF the Israel people themselves were corrupt, which as we know from history is possible for any country, criticising them wouldn't be Anti-semetic.

Heck... I doubt that many people even consider Israel to be "Jewish" as the forefront of their identity anymore.

The REAL issue is that Israel is having difficult gaining support in its current war effort and some people are taking it upon themselves, in a similar way to other movements, to assault people with claims of anti-semetism as a way to shut people they don't like up. There is no racism here... just mudslinging politics.

Honestly I am getting tired of people using egg-shells to get what they want.
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Yanlin

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At least they aren't using tank shells.
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Jude

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The creation of Israel was a huge mistake. Doesn't take a genius to recognize that. Allowing them to take even more land than they were given in the first place was an even bigger mistake, and continuing to give them handouts of US taxpayer money to support them occupying the West Bank and bombing Gaza is the biggest mistake of them all.

Also, it's easy to separate out people who are capable of mature discussions about the issue from those who aren't, because those who aren't just call you an anti-semite the second you criticize Israel and then you can just safely ignore them. That's all that really needs to be said about the thread topic.
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Samyotix

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Maybe; but on the other hand, many political decisions were, erm, sub-optimal, including some of the reasons Israel came into being (genocide in Europe).

That is - to me - where the ability to distinguish between a 'people' or 'tribe', and a modern state, becomes vital: There are many Israelis with Arab, uh, genes, or blood; some of those follow the muslim and others the jewish religion (the  forefathers of the latter moved to Europe and converted Europeans, who later founded Israel.) Ironically, some european-looking jewish Israelis don't like arab-looking jewish Israelis who in turn don't enjoy being called Arabs ... and there are Christans and atheists in Israel as well. That may include many of the immigrants from Russia who were allowed into Israel because of papers saying they are jewish ... paper can be bought, it seems, at least pork butchers are said to be thriving in the Russian districts. ... the Russian immigrants seem to like guns and dislike arabs, from what I've heard.

And ... erm, when you say jew, do you mean "of jewish descent" or the religion? If it's race, do you include the "1/4 jew"? Do you really want to adhere to an outdated model of thought based on "science" that has long been disproven, that created such racial categories for people who just wanted to live their lives ... and which btw directly led to gas chambers for people such as atheist college students who happened to have an atheist, german-nationalist, jewish-born parent, or most of the European gypsies? Oh, it's the religion? What about converts? Ethnic Europeans who're of jewish religion dominate Israel, oh and by the way: Genetically, the Palestine Jews are Palestinians. European jews are Europeans, the "race theory" they had 100 years ago is snake oil and humbug once you examine the genetic code.
And so on. The closer you look, the more complicated it becomes: There is no one "jewish people" ruling Israel, it's just a messy democracy full of racial and religious hate.

Israel is also a democracy; when we criticize its war against Palestine, its aggressive stance, human rights violations, bombs on UN buildings, we criticize a government, not just those of its citizens who happen to be Jewish.

... but in order to be fair, one should then also mentioned that Hamas etc. are no angels either, and that any country in the world would react to having rockets shot into its territory.

Most antisemitism seems to be based on the rather outdated, primitive world view of tribes fighting each other ... once you look more closely, and apply Occams's Razor to some of the wilder conspiracy theories, it's all so complicated as to be nearly overwhelming and seemingly unsolvable ... IMO people who fear this level of complexity and intertwined issues retreat to stupidity, because simple explanations and beliefs are easier, and more comforting, than having to dig for information, think about which information and its interpretation to trust, etc.
(So to some people magical beliefs in something they want to be true seems better than having to search for knowledge. To some, the world is flat, God created us 6000 years ago, ethnic group X controls the government and/or and caused 9/11, Bush and the CIA caused 9/11 in order to christianize Iraq, Russia watched calmly as NASA tricked the world into believing they'd landed on the moon ... all assumptions so completely unlikely they may well be called idiotic; anyone who believes that is not interesting in being too firmly rooted in our mind-shatteringly complex reality.)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 05:44:30 pm by Samyotix »
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Neonivek

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Quote
Most antisemitism seems to be based on the rather outdated, primitive world view of tribes fighting each other


At least in these times.

You go far enough and there is plenty of really nasty things they could have done to you going on ONLY the stuff in the Jewish Bible which I forgot the name of... dang. (Only counting the stuff... that could have happened without divine intervention)
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LegoLord

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That quote in the OP is the most insane thing I've ever heard.  I'm going to kill this thread now.

Can you really blame the Germans for what Hitler did?  No.  The people don't have anything to do with the actions of their government.  They can only control who the government is.  And people, where ever you go, make mistakes.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Strife26

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I don't mind the Isreali actions. Crush Gaza once and for all. What else can they do? Peace can't work (there are enough die-hard violent factions in both sides) and tanks beat anything that Hamas can feild. Why bother with anything else when rocket attacks will continue?

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LegoLord

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I don't mind the Isreali actions. Crush Gaza once and for all. What else can they do? Peace can't work (there are enough die-hard violent factions in both sides) and tanks beat anything that Hamas can feild. Why bother with anything else when rocket attacks will continue?


Because that will just lead to one group being oppressed by another nation that doesn't really have any right to rule it.  That, or the destruction of an entire group, including innocent bystanders to the violence.  Peace is the only thing that works.  The problem is that there is a lack of it.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Strife26

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But peace can't work here, there are too many hardliners. Isreali agression should be harsh now, to crush the millitants, then it will (might really) slacken off.
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Karlito

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No! It is possible to seperate China from Han Chinese, Turkey from the Turkish people, and Israel from the Jewish people! It must be possible, otherwise...gah.

There is a difference between China/Turkey and Israel though.  Israel exists to be a Jewish state.  Its laws exist to ensure that Jews will always remain in power within Israel.  All actions that Israel takes must benefit Judaism, by their own laws.
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