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Author Topic: Criticism of a nation is equal to criticism of a ethnic group within that nation  (Read 26327 times)

LegoLord

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Germany wasn't nationalist until after Germany was putty in his hands.  And it's like I said;  People didn't think he'd be able to do it.  He was elected to an office that shouldn't have allowed that, but took advantage of legal crap to become a dictator.  No one saw that coming.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Il Palazzo

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They ELECTED the NATIONALIST party(NSDAP = Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei = National Socialist German Workers' Party = Nazi party), which atcively advertised their racist stance.
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LegoLord

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Well if you've got a bunch of other people who seem okay-ish, but not good, and then this one guy promising to make everything better (maybe with one or two racist comments mixed in), and you are hungry, poor, and desperate for improvement, are you going to vote for the okay-ish people?  Honestly?
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Il Palazzo

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Look, I know, populism sells well during times of crisis. And yes, I'm sure that few people imagined what would the racial supremacy politics escalate to, not when the NSDAP first rose to power. What I'm saying is that people should take responsibility for their choices, especially if they finally turn out to be bad, and not hide behind slogans like " 'tis the government, not us!" or, "I was desperate, I thought that they were serious about the economic miracles, but never thought that they'd really pull out the racial hate stuff".
Ignorance or stupidity is not an argument. You wanted democracy, then bite it.
And this does apply to Jews as well, who should take responsibilty for Israeli government's actions.
Note that the Germans did take the responsibility, while Jews hide behind Holocaust, Terrorism and the US support.

Actually, the guy who wrote the article mentioned in the OP was actually right there: You can equate Country with a nation, as long as it's a single-nation(nationalist) one. Only, in the case he presented, doing so does not ennoble Israel's behaviour due to Jew's precious victim's status. Doing so causes Jews to lose reputation due to Israel's poor conduct.
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LegoLord

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But what about Jews that don't live in Israel?
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Strife26

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Lame joke which I regret posting:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 07:37:57 am by Strife26 »
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Karlito

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Strife, are you being serious?  Because the thought of me taking you seriously even for a little while just vanished with that last post.
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This sentence contains exactly threee erors.

Gorjo MacGrymm

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....discriminating a group of people just because of their religion, "race", sex, or whatever is completely intolerable.

Damn Right, lets make all them 'discriminators' wear gold stars so we can know who to hate!

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Sorry, but i just cant stop laughing after reading this

edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 11:48:23 pm by Gorjo MacGrymm »
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"You should stop cutting down all these herr trees, or, MAN is my Queen going to be Aaaaa-aang-Re-ee with you guys!" flipping his hand and batting his eyelashes."
"Oh my god guys, wood, is like, totally murder."

Salmeuk

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....discriminating a group of people just because of their religion, "race", sex, or whatever is completely intolerable.

Damn Right, lets make all them 'discriminators' wear gold stars so we can know who to hate!

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Sorry, but i just cant stop laughing after reading this

edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.

Though it might be rather true that discriminating against the discriminators is still discrimination, I would rather look at it as a better discrimination than the type we have today.

Personally, If I suddenly had a new nation fall from the sky onto my poor, old house I would probably fight it as well.
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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....discriminating a group of people just because of their religion, "race", sex, or whatever is completely intolerable.

Damn Right, lets make all them 'discriminators' wear gold stars so we can know who to hate!

-------------
Sorry, but i just cant stop laughing after reading this

edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.

Though it might be rather true that discriminating against the discriminators is still discrimination, I would rather look at it as a better discrimination than the type we have today.

Personally, If I suddenly had a new nation fall from the sky onto my poor, old house I would probably fight it as well.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
edit:  I think some of you should be reading some more history books concerning the birth of modern Israel and the violence leveled against it by its neighbors from the first day.
......
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"You should stop cutting down all these herr trees, or, MAN is my Queen going to be Aaaaa-aang-Re-ee with you guys!" flipping his hand and batting his eyelashes."
"Oh my god guys, wood, is like, totally murder."

Neonivek

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Quote
Though it might be rather true that discriminating against the discriminators is still discrimination

It is.

One thing people sometimes forget about Tollerance is that it isn't about agreeing with anyone... it is about respecting them enough that you can life with it.

Mind you that Tollerance is a Cardinal Virtue (Cardinal means Hinge... yes like a Door Hinge) thus it is about having a balance between being intollerant to everyone... and being tollerant to things you shouldn't stand for.

Also Gorjo... Bad form... if you have something to say, say it properly. What you did is really on par with trolling.
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Deathworks

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Hello!

I don't really see what is funny about saying that discrimination is not to be tolerated. "Discrimination" as I understand it means actually oppressing people, denying them basic rights, causing harm to them. If you have prejudices, that is your right and I have to tolerate that - but if you act upon those prejudices then tolerance has to end in my opinion.

While you are reading those history books, why not check out a few other things. As far as I remember, the German Jews who got murdered were also Germans and if I am not completely mistaken, in the Weimar Republic they did have the right to vote. While I am not absolutely sure about the latter, the former is already something people tend to forget. Those were Germans who spoke German as they mother tongue and who had lived in Germany for generations.

It is true that they were facing serious prejudice and some level of discrimination, but the real exclusion from society came only after Hitler came into power. After all, how could the big Kaufhof department store chain be owned by a Jew at that time if they didn't have at least somewhat normal citizen rights? (It is one example I remember of major Jewish businesses that got stolen by the Nazi government).

As for Jews in other places than Israel, there are many more Jews outside of Israel than in Israel. A large portion probably was happy to live in the nations their grandparents and parents have lived - and these are not Israel or Palestine. Another portion are intellectuals who moved to Israel, got disillusioned by the state of affairs there, and moved back to some country not constantly at war.

Because of that, I actually get personally annoyed by people equating Israel with Jews, as any mistakes Israel might make would then be blamed also on Jews who never visited the place.

As for the nationalist party back in the days of Hitler, you have to put this into context. Nationalism got its reputation seriously tainted by the conduct of the Hitler regime. Before that, nationalism was more of a neutral term and actually also referred to the fact that Germany for instance was a very young "nation" having finally reached a unity of the small dukedoms that originally divided its territory. Nationalism was more linked to bringing people together in a single nation rather than spreading hate against others.

Of course, nationalism as Hitler understood it was clearly the hateful type and both Germans and the international community should have actually known about that as he never made a secret of this.

In fact, much of his electoral success was based on his simple formula of blaming all bad things on minorities or ill-understood groups, thus gathering the support of the majority by simply telling them that they are the poor victims of some conspiracy.

As for theocracies, it sounds rather abstruse that putting in place a government claiming that "Our God is the only real God" will lead to tolerance and understanding... It is hard to believe that that government would not have a bias to their own religion leading to discrimination of the other religions.

Therefore, the secular democracy seems at an advantage as it puts the state as such as a religious neutral abiter (at least in theory) which would not consider one religion superior to another and thus not discriminate. And a secular democracy does not mean that the individuals are not allowed to follow their own religions as they please. On the contrary.

Deathworks
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Strife26

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Sorry. The joke was in bad taste. I apologize. Most of my other statements have been serious though.
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chaoticag

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Both sides want peace in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Wiping out people is never an answer, name me one genocide that has done the human race good.

I remember hearing somewhere that 2/3 of Jews do not support the creation of a Jewish state based on what the Torah says (Old Testament). You also have to remember that the creation of a Jewish state is pretty anti-sematic in the first place, and was concieved of before the second world war as a way to rid Britain of their Jewish population. Arab opposition started out because the treaty they had with Britain during WWI was suppose to give the Arabs the lands that used to belong to the Ottoman Empire.

This tangled mess could be solved, and the way I would do it would be to give the Palestinians representation in the Israeli government, which despite my lack of knowladge I would assume that they aren't given any, despite having lived there for centuries before.

The entire situation reminds me of the time when the US spread West, displacing and massacring Native Americans because of their "divine right" to spread to the Atlantic. They did fight back then, and if you asked anyone back then they would probably say that the fight would continue. Now Native Americans live in peace in the US.
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Jude

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I remember hearing somewhere that 2/3 of Jews do not support the creation of a Jewish state based on what the Torah says (Old Testament).
2/3 sounds like a number that came out of someone's anus, but a lot of religious Jews believe that, yeah. Mostly ultra-orthodox ones tho.
Quote
The entire situation reminds me of the time when the US spread West, displacing and massacring Native Americans because of their "divine right" to spread to the Atlantic. They did fight back then, and if you asked anyone back then they would probably say that the fight would continue. Now Native Americans live in peace in the US.
"Peace." They're given little ghettos as a sorry substitute for what used to be their civilization, which we decimated and did our best to stamp out. Incidentally, when I was in the west bank we met a delegation of Native Americans who were coming over there to talk to the Palestinians about how the same kinds of things are going on in the occupied territories now, as America was doing to the Indians back in the day - gradually trying to ghetto them and force them out. Or just kill them if possible. The similarity is striking.

Anyway, you certainly can blame the German people for Hitler. If they'd stood up all together and organized against him, they could have stopped him. You think he had no public support? LOTS of people loved him and that's why he was able to get so powerful.

Same thing in Israel. If all Israelis decided that human rights are more important than Jewish rights and told their government to stop abusing Palestinians, you think the occupation would go on? And as an American, I have a part in the guilt for all the terrible shit America has pulled in the last 20 years, including supporting Israel. Any government ultimately depends on support of the people, if only to enforce its laws and kill other people who disagree, but in a democracy, the people absolutely share in the guilt for whatever the government does.
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