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[Yanlin]

Not really. As far as legality is concerned, Israel owns its own land. The land was conquered by the British and then... Pretty much handed over to us. But the actual land to be handed over was much smaller. When we got that, our neighbors declared war. We... To put it mildly... kicked their asses. So we had to fight for most of this land. The amount of land we originally had was PUNY.

I'd also like to mention that Palestinians have never been booted off. All of them have been offered unconditional citizenship after a background check. Many accepted, others refused. Eventually through politics, they got the Gaza strip. Before that, their lives were rather good. They had decent paying jobs, they had families, etc. Then when they obtained the Gaza strip, Israel had to relocate a lot of its citizens to other cities and settlements. We completely pulled out of there. We let them have their own nation there as demanded by them.

Fast forward a little. Hammas took over and are now basically the dictators there.



Please correct me if I'm wrong. But please don't throw your blind beliefs at me. What I just said came from the accumulated knowledge of history and politics I currently have.

[chaoticag]

The biggest reason for the spark between the Arabs and Israelies would be, in my opinion, the treaty signed between rebel arab forces in the then Ottoman empire and the British forces. The arabs were promised all land conqured but recieved nothing.

[Virex]

Not really. As far as legality is concerned, Israel owns its own land. The land was conquered by the British and then... Pretty much handed over to us. But the actual land to be handed over was much smaller. When we got that, our neighbors declared war. We... To put it mildly... kicked their asses. So we had to fight for most of this land. The amount of land we originally had was PUNY.

There's a difference between legally owning a land and morality owning it. Sure, England had the legal right to give the land to anyone they liked, but that doesn't mean it was right that they explicitly took away land from one group and gave it to another group who hadn't lived in that land for 2 millenia. You could say that they were treated well and given citizenship, but that's not the problem. The problem was that their home wasn't their home anymore. Sure, during the colonial occupation by England, they didn't rule the land, but at least it was recognised that it was their land. And then the English explicitly gave it to someone else without taking the original inhabitants into account. And to add insult to injury, countries like Syria and Yemen were given land roughly according to their demographics. Combine this with the fact that during the interbellum, zionists imigrated into palestinia at a stagering pace and it becomes understandable that the Palestinians, who finaly hoped to be free of foreighn occupation (before the first world war they were occupied by the Ottomans, which was actualy a defining factor in the creation of Palestinian nationalsim) saw little option but to fight for their own country.

[Yanlin]

I guess everybody just ignored how the Aborigine tribes in Australia were killed off even though it was their land. Not to mention the Native Americans.

Besides, Israel is not being unreasonable. We're trying to help them as hard as we can. But here's the thing. Hammas wont let Israel help the Gaza strip. You need to see things from their perspective. (Gaza citizens.)

Hammas is basically lying to them left and right. They are doing the same thing Hitler did. Blame everything on a little known group. They also blame it so eloquently that it's just amazing. Not to mention they brought religion into this. Not us.

Personally I don't give a shit. This is their land just as much as it's ours. Ever since Israel was created, the lives of most Arab citizens have improved. (Citation needed.)

From my history studies, this land was full of tiny undeveloped villages. 60 years later, Large towns, cities, development.

Not to mention Israel's contribution to science. I'd tell you more, but my sources are Wikipedia. So take my statement with a huge mountain of salt. Just ask Wikipedia yourself.



Right, shall we rerail this topic? I'm sick of discussing about this.

[Il Palazzo]

I sense a lot of undiscussable subjectivism here.

[inaluct]

I sense a lot of "Il Palazzo is right" here.

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Bah, the alternative, Fatah, is corrupt.

Fix that and the economy, while you're at that.

Edit: Beside that, I'm surprised no one's suing Israel for the destroyal of the UN's school back then...

I thought the Europeans were mad all over it?

[Yanlin]

Fatah is AN alternative. Not THE alternative.

Also, Israeli forces were attacked from that building. We had proof that it served as a Hammas base. (Though exactly how valid the proof is, I don't know. We had audio logs of a reporter from Al Jezzira (SP) that basically admitted to firing rockets from the building. Her worried sister called and thought she heard a rocket HIT the building. Over this recorded phone call (Our spies tapped their phone lines. Big surprise.) the reporter calmed the sister down by saying those were outbound rockets to Israel.

Basically something like this.

The IDF claim to have only opened fire on buildings that fired at them.

[Virex]

Well, that kinda is the problem with wars like this. you have to rely on information that is often doubtful to decide about the lives of people. If you attack and it's not a Hamas base, then you've caused a lot of unneeded casualties. However, if you don't attack it and it does turn out to be a Hamas base, then your own guys are going to bite the bullet (or the rocket in this case). It doesn't make killing innocents any more justified, but it does raise the question if being to strict with persecuting these offences may make urban warfare an impossible task.

[Yanlin]

Anyone remember the crap Hammas used to fake? They faked funerals, injuries, rubble, smoke, etc. All to make Israel look bad.

I still remember that crappy photoshop job that I saw in the newspaper. Our photo had barely any smoke. Their photo had lots of smoke that looked oddly copy pasted. Well it went to a photoshop expert for analysis. Guess what. Fake.

[chaoticag]

Anyone remember the crap Hammas used to fake? They faked funerals, injuries, rubble, smoke, etc. All to make Israel look bad.

[citation needed]

I still remember that crappy photoshop job that I saw in the newspaper. Our photo had barely any smoke. Their photo had lots of smoke that looked oddly copy pasted. Well it went to a photoshop expert for analysis. Guess what. Fake.

So you looked at a photo, taken by an unnamed person that was called a Hammas operative, that was shown on Isreali newspapers, which like any other newspaper is biased towards Israeli views, and proved that it was fake?

This can be easily challanged as a forgery of what a Hammas operative did, and this is the first time I hear about any of this making stuff up. This includes the 2 years I spent in the US, although news on the entire situation while I was there was drowned out by their reports on the war in Iraq.

[Virex]

I still remember that crappy photoshop job that I saw in the newspaper. Our photo had barely any smoke. Their photo had lots of smoke that looked oddly copy pasted. Well it went to a photoshop expert for analysis. Guess what. Fake.

So you looked at a photo, taken by an unnamed person that was called a Hammas operative, that was shown on Isreali newspapers, which like any other newspaper is biased towards Israeli views, and proved that it was fake?

This can be easily challanged as a forgery of what a Hammas operative did, and this is the first time I hear about any of this making stuff up. This includes the 2 years I spent in the US, although news on the entire situation while I was there was drowned out by their reports on the war in Iraq.

You're actualy surprised a photo in a newspaper was photoshoped? 

[Yanlin]

In a Hammas newspaper? No.

[Jude]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd also like to mention that Palestinians have never been booted off. All of them have been offered unconditional citizenship after a background check.

I'll correct you on this one first. You're aware of the ~800k of them that got displaced and never allowed back in 1948 right? Then the next wave that happened in 67? Some of them left for obvious reasons (there was a war going on) and some got booted off. These people are still living in refugee camps and nobody offered them Israeli citizenship.

Ever since Israel was created, the lives of most Arab citizens have improved.

That's arguable. Modernity has come; whether or not that's good is a question we could talk out our asses about for hours. However, it's not really the few Palestinians that were lucky enough to get Israeli citizenship, who have a problem here. It's the vast majority of them who got kicked out and ended up in refugee camps or under military rule in the West Bank (or lived in the West Bank all along and are in the same situation, like the family I lived with), who have a problem.
If Israel were willing to let those people have citizenship and equal rights, you'd have a point, but apparently it's more important for people from Brooklyn to be able to come over to the middle east and feel great about being Jewish, than for people to be able to live in their ancestral homeland instead of a refugee camp or a ghetto.

Anyone remember the crap Hammas used to fake? They faked funerals, injuries, rubble, smoke, etc. All to make Israel look bad.

Nobody's defending Hamas here. But the thing is, they didn't need to fake anything to make Israel look bad in that Gaza massacre...or in the occupation.

[Yanlin]

Thanks. Could you just cite your sources please?