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[crazedwarf]

I tried searching for this (thorbardin, dragonlance..etc) and was surprised there was absolutely nothing. Is DF inspired by the Dragonlance novels about the creation of Thorbardin? I hadn't read the books in awhile, but after playing DF it reminded me of those stories, so I dug them out and reread them and the similarities are so many that it seems obvious. In case you hadn't read them, the stories are about an exiled group of dwarves migrating to a new land and setting up a fortress there in a mountain. The end having to defend against raids and end up building an empire. Sound familiar or am I being Cpt. Obvious here?? 

[Capntastic]

DF is loosely based on fantasy in general.

[Dasleah]

DF was originally a Mines Of Moria simulator, so many of its base fantasy concepts are from Tolkein. And Tolkein just happens to be the most ripped off author in fantasy - hence why you can pick up almost any novel that has Dwarves in it and find some similarities. Sure, there are always going to be little twists, but in the end they're all still using the Tolkein Dwarf as an archetype.

However, if you're looking for DF's true inspirations, turn on he TV and watch a few hours of Animal Planet or the Discovery Channel. They've probably contributed more to DF than Tolkein has at this point.

[crazedwarf]

I understand what you're saying about Tolkien being the original influence. I am well versed in Tolkien. But have you read the stories I'm talking about? If you had you'd understand why I'm asking whether the Thorbardin stories had a bigger, more specific influence.

The first couple of stories in the series are so similiar (immigrants looking for a place to build a new fortress, then going thru the raids/building..etc) I was struck by how many instances they were exactly the same or could have been the seeds for ideas in DF, and not just generalities. For example, the books talk a lot about the specific building of the fortress and it's very similiar with the building of magma forges and smelters around magma pipes, not to mention how the housing was delved, the weavers, the engineers...etc. The issue arises in the books of defense not just being built inside the mountain. The defensive ideas of Thorbardin are exactly like some of the features/ideas offered for defence in the game (building of pits/walkways that force attackers to go thru areas surrounded by fortifications for archers). Some dwarves prefer the outdoors in the books. Etc etc. There are even some more specific examples that are escaping me right now. Even the issue of trade with humans/elves are part of the story. Anyone who read these stories see the similiarities besides me?

Edited: because I thought of another major similarity which escaped me... in the stories there are bands of raiding goblins!

Edited: and another.. in the stories the issue arises that dwarves that aren't busy get bored and _depressed_, which in turn leads to violence and crime, even some dwarves going nuts.

[Heron TSG]

well, they seem slightly similar, but so do the dwarves in LOTR and the ones in dragonlance.

point is, we don't have any massive steel-covered stone corks to block access to our forts, just doors.

[Haven]

Most of that seems like simple practicality. Pits and walls are used everywhere for forts, and entrances to castles were normally lined with murder holes. It's not as though dwarves are known for going outside to cut trees for their forges, so they just tap the magma. If there are humans, elves, dwarves, and trade, dwarves are gonna trade with elves and humans. If there are clothes, there will be weavers, and if there are mechanical constructs, so will there be mechanics. If your dwarves are industrious, it stands to reason boredom will affect them to a greater degree.

It seems to be, for the most part, logical progression. Both the Dragonlance novels and DF look into exactly what it would take to run a dwarven fort, and come to similar conclusions. Though I haven't read the books, so I couldn't tell you specifics. From the wiki articles, some differences I can see are the apparent lack of the equal to fey moods, as well as the fact that your outpost isn't the result of war between dwarven races, but rather remains on good terms with its mother civ. Also, dwarves being bored brings little more than a bit heavier of an unhappy thought than one would expect. A lot of the setup ideas, like housing, defence, and forges, are entirely in the hands of the player.

[Heron TSG]

DL dwarves didn't found thorbardin because of a war... the hylar left their old home because of a human siege, and there were already clans in Kal Thax that hated each other, yet they helped eachother anyways.

[Janus]

I understand what you're saying about Tolkien being the original influence. I am well versed in Tolkien. But have you read the stories I'm talking about? If you had you'd understand why I'm asking whether the Thorbardin stories had a bigger, more specific influence.

The first couple of stories in the series are so similiar...

<snip>

I think you would make a damned fine conspiracy theorist with this particular ability set. 

[Tormy]

DF is loosely based on fantasy in general.

This. We have elves, kobolds, goblins, dwarves & many traditional fantasy creatures. The world itself is Tolkienish right now, but this will be changed eventually. [Especially after the Magic Arc]

[betamax]

Guys, you do realise it is perfectly possible that Toady could have read these books and drawn influence from them?
There's no need to dismiss the idea entirely.

[Granite26]

Guys, you do realise it is perfectly possible that Toady could have read these books and drawn influence from them?
There's no need to dismiss the idea entirely.

You don't understand, man... He's suggesting that DF might not be the most Trope-breaking work of innovative fantasy ever.  He MUST be ridiculed

[crazedwarf]

The quote function screws up in firefox, not sure why.

Um, not sure why you guys seem to be a little hostile or claiming I am grasping at straws. You haven't read the stories and you are trying to disprove me by reading the WIKI? Sir, you can't read the Thorbardin WIKI and come to any conclusion about whether I am right or wrong about this. And if you're going to claim I'm some kind of conspirist, at least _address my points_ and explain why you came to this conclusion? Does ONE person here know whether Toady was actually inspired by these stories??

And (major LOL) I didn't come to my conclusions because both have elves, goblins, humans, and dwarves that use smelters and forges and build fortifications in mountains. For so many people Tolkien (one of my top 3 favs) is the beginning and the end and they know nothing beyond that. lol

The fact is, until you have read The Covenant of the Forge and the other books in the series, than you have no idea what I'm talking about. Believe me, I just reread them. The ah-hah moments are there. Many of them. Wonderful coincidence? Maybe. But very hard to believe. You may not agree after you have read them, but I think you wouldn't just dismiss my idea entirely once you had. There are a lot of generalities and similiarities, I absolutely agree. SO many of them that I believe Toady might have read these books at one time.

BTW, the possible seed for a fey idea are there...Pack Lodestone in Hammer and Axe (the second book). Again, read the books and come back and tell me I'm way off base here? 

As far as the game being a Tolkien simulation, I disagree, and I will tell you why. To me DF is like all the other Tolkien influened games.... _very_ inspired by Tolkien, but not quite it. Kind of an alternate reality, with purring maggots to boot. On the other hand, you could have called this game Thorbardin easily.

I'm not claiming it's a ripoff or an exact version of Thorbardin, although the concept is definately exactly the same (find place for fortress, create fortress, defend/build fortress). The gateplugs and tractor worms aren't there (and no wonder... then it would be an obvious DL ripoff).

Toady put his mark on dwarves and I like it a lot. Really would love to hear from him, because after rereading the books after discovering this game.... well, sorry, but I'm convinced it had an influence on the game. If I'm wrong, I'm cool with that. A wonderful coincidence then.

Even if Thorbardin had no influence at all, I recommend you read the Dwarven Nations trilogy. They WILL make you want to play! 

[Toady One]

He he, no, I never read the Dwarven Nations trilogy, though I read some of the earlier DL books.  I recognize the cover for Gates of Thorbardin, and I think I read that (that would be 1990 if wiki is right, which is around the time I stopped getting new ones).  I don't remember the details or how much that went into their dwarves, but if that book or earlier DL books had something in it that reminds you of the game, I'd say it's fair to say it colored my overall perspective of what it means to be a dwarf.  I draw more from Silm/LoTR/Hobbit on this overall, from the whole foundation and destruction of Khazad-dum/Moria, with the Balin expedition directly responsible for the reclaim mechanic.

[Jay]

The quote function screws up in firefox, not sure why.
*super snip*

Umm?  No, it doesn't.
In yours, maybe, but it works fine in mine, and I haven't heard anything of this before.
And I'm (as my signature shows) an avid supporter of Firefox.

Threadgoers, we have official word from Toady One.
Indeed.
Can't speculate on where the Dwarves come from now.

[crazedwarf]

Thanks for the reply and clearing that up Toady! I think those DL dwarves did indeed rub off on you a bit. Again, I highly suggest anyone check out the trilogy. You'll probably see exactly where I came up with my comparisons. I am shocked noone on this forum has ever mentioned the similiarties though. Plus, I hope most of us understand Tolkien did not create the fantasy genre, or the dwarven stereotype in fantasy in general, so I always look for influences in games and reading beyond just Tolkien. There are other authors/history/myths that have been equally borrowed from heavily over the years that don't get a fraction of the credit.

jaybud4, ummm, yes, it definately does, and only here on this forum for some reason. Just updated recently. When I try to Insert Quote the quote becomes this big garble of what I was quoting and the text around it, but randomly garbled. Weird. Probably just something on my end. I love Firefox myself... feel sorry for IE users. lol