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[Duke 2.0]

 Alright, so I am making a castle with Humans that is intended to look like something somebody would make, and not just a square with a few towers around it. So far it has been what, thirteen years now? Most things I want accomplished are somewhat finished, but there are a few projects I am somewhat bummed out about. Where the Church and Keep were fun to make, these things are growing more and more dreaded in my mind for no real reason.

 So, I have a good 30x21 tile space to make a grand hall for the population to dine in. I might allow 35x21, but I want a lake inside the castle walls and what better entrance to a grand hall than over a lake? I have no ideas for what to do with this. That is where you guys come in. Could somebody come up with plans for a grand hall that will be constructed in such a space, and will only have a maximum of 3 z-levels of livable space?

 Then there are the dungeons. I dunno if I even want to make them, but I know a proper castle needs them. A design for this(any size, really. Just nothing larger than 100x100 as I doubt humans could make something that large underground) would be grand.

 Then there is the other lake outside the fortress entrance, with the now-sealed mines underneath the lakebed that was once the entrance to the mine. Water appears to fill the moats to an extent, but once it reaches the lake it just spreads out and dissipates. I need to devise a system of making water fill the lake without anything particularly large or obstructing the landscape. This is a human castle, not a dwarven pumping project.

 That is all. You shall hear more of Healedabby once I get the lake filled and the grand hall finished.

 Edit:
 3Dwarf pictures! There are about ten of them, so bear with me here.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The front gate. Didn't know what angle to do this in, but I learned two things from this shot: Bridges mess everything under them up and fortifications/windows don't show correctly. Still, you get an idea.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another angle of the front gate. If the ramps only led into the walls, it would look perfect.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The great hall! again, with windows missing this doesn't look right. Whatever. I like how it looks rounded. I might take away the roof spikes though.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Inside the Great Hall.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I might consider extending the moat for this barracks tower. Also, the internal garden looks awesome in 3Dwarf.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basement, where humans learn to swim and their armor is stored.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Manor. I like how the courtyards and nobility housing turned out.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Magicians tower. I might want to make it taller next time I make a tower.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The church, with a proper roof. Due to the constraints of 3Dwarf and the measurements of the walls, it looks terrible inside. Whatever again.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Lake, because I can.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

well, the dining room will obviously need thick pillars and a dais at one end for the nobles/king.

[Duke 2.0]

 Naturally. Add as many splendors as you need. I have access to windows as part of my plans(Screw you not-cheating, this is for show and my cheating isn't making this any easier), so be sure to include those. I even had a glassmaker succeed in a mood, so masterwork windows all around.

[Deathworks]

Hello!

Concerning your water projects, how much rain do you get per year? There are some large, albeit dry lakes on your map, not far from the one you want to convert - do you think they could give you enough water for the lake over a usable amount of time? Or what is your prospective watersource?

The following assumes that you are using a murky pool or similar as a water source.

Anyhow, you should first calculate how big a gulp your lake needs in its worst moment. In order to do this, count the number of tiles the lake has at its biggest z-level (probably the top level :) :) ) and multiply it by 2. That is the amount of water you need to add to that level so that it will not dry up.

Since you don't have a water source at a higher level, it seems, you need to be a bit more conservative, so I suggest dividing that amount by 5 to get the number of tiles filled to 5/7 you would need to store that much water. Keep that number as x1, add one and then multiply by 2. Divide this result by 5 to get the extra water space needed. Repeat/estimate until you get to less than 1 extra tile needed. Add all these results.

Dig out a room on the highest level of the lake (or higher, if possible (^_^;; ), directly next to the lake, connected to it by exactly 1x1 tile (where you can put the flood gate).

Dig another 1x1 connection into the walls of that room in direction of the water source.

Now calculate one other number: Take the size of the water source in tiles, multiply it by 7 and then divide it by 2. Keep this number as y1. Subtract the size of the water source. Subtract 1. This is the MAXIMUM size of the room that touches directly into your water source.

If (y1 * 7) / 2 > (y1 + 1 + size of the other room), you are all set. You can design the rooms to directly touch each other. Otherwise, you need another, smaller connector room to add capacity (its size should be so as to comply with the above formula). Hopefully this is the enough added capacity (increasing y1 for the new check) so you can connect them.

If the water source is usually dry, you can breach it via digging and put a flood gate in between it and the closest room. If not, you have to wait until it is at full capacity (7/7 in each tile) and then breach the final wall using a channel.

Once this is done, all you have to do is to wait for rain. As soon as the water source hits 7/7 in all tiles, open the next flood gate. The water level will sink to at worst 2/7, so no evaporation loss should take place.

Once the water reaches the last floodgate into the lake, you need to wait again until the water is 7/7 everywhere. Then, close the floodgate connecting the last room with the watersource. Only once it is closed, open the floodgate into the lake, allowing one gulp to drain down into it.

As soon as water levels in the final room hit 1/7, close the last floodgate again and instead open the floodgate to the watersource so that the last room will not take evaporation damage.

From now on, you simply need to wait for the water level to go to 7/7 and then send another gulp down.

This all assumes, of course, that you are not in a scorching environment where the water evaporates quicker than usual (^_^;; And you can replace the calculations by defensive estimates, of course.

With this method, you end up with a few rooms and floodgates under the surface and maybe one mined-out tile on the surface. Its disadvantage is the long time it may take.

I have used this method (although not calculated but estimated, I have to admit) in my current fortress to feed my well, combined with connecting water sources to increase their volume. In my case, however, it was mostly because the connection between source and well was too long, resulting in no water reaching the well (^_^;;

Deathworks

[Mephansteras]

For the dining room, are the kitchens going to be included in it? Or are you just going to go with some sort of cellar to store food/booze that is made elsewhere?

Anyway, here is my thought on it. Add some room for kitchens in the back if needed.

The first floor is a large hall, lined with pillars. The walls are lined with windows. The tables and chairs are all set to look towards the center, which is paved in something valuable of a different color then the rest of the room. Marble, perhaps, or a metal. Gold, if you have enough. At the end of the hall is a 5x5 platform (walls) with stairs leading up each side. The platform is the only major piece of the second story. On it are the tables for the nobility, with their dining area set to fill the entire area. They'll overlap, but with rich enough furniture and all the masterwork windows that should be ok. The columns from the first floor rise up the ceiling.

The Third story will probably be open for the most part, perhaps with one section blocked off for quarters to house the servers (food haulers).

Take what you like from this idea.

[Duke 2.0]

 @Deathworks: Ah, thanks for writing such a large reply! However, your fears are founded. It only rains in the Spring, and at most the ponds are filled with one-deep water. Then they all dry during the Summer. The Brook is unlimited, and I suppose I could transfer your idea to the Moat. Still  making those locks and progressively flooding the whole thing will be a pain, particularly look at the remains of the lock system now untouchable because of the water.
 Actually, this gives me an Idea. I'm going to make a dungeon, so I might as well add some interesting things underground. One such thing could be a water access tunnel under the castle that pumps water straight from the brook to the tower closest to the lake. The tower in question is a bit large due to a measurement error, so it would work great.
 Thank you.

 @Mephansteras: Indeed, I had ideas similar to that as well. I'm more for an actual blueprint here though. Probably something somebody made in paint at the pixel level. I don't have large enough of a population for servants for other than the keep, so likely the third level would just be open space to make the hall grand.

 Ah, one of those situations where engraving constructions would be grand.

 Also, for even better reference, I put the updated map on the DFMA. A POI shows where I want to make the thing. Basically, I'll allow that space in the walls for whatever people want to be made. No need to adhere strictly to the 30x21 specifications.
 Healedabby

[Mephansteras]

If I had more time, I'd draw it up for you.

Hmm...you know what? Maybe I'll build one during my next round of tests for my Frost Giant Citadel. They'll need something to do anyway while I get everything tested out. No idea how soon I'll have it done, but I can share the completed version regardless.

[Hyndis]

Sounds like you just need more current at the connection from your moat to the brook. I'd recommend widening that significantly, as you simply aren't getting enough water volume to fill up that lake before it evaporates.

Alternatively, dig an underground sewer to directly connect the lake and the brook.


Aside from that...


This is a masterwork fort. It menaces with spikes of win and awesome.   

[Deathworks]

Hello!

Ah, that is too bad. As far as I know, as soon as you are underground, standard evaporation rules apply, though - 1/7 dies, 2/7 lives. So, when dealing with water, having underground tunnels is probably the way to go.

Looking at the huge size the lake now has in the new version, I think this will be difficult.

I strongly recommend NOT widening its contact with the moat/brook. Although the brook has unlimited water, it only enters at 7/7 per tile. There is a certain limit to its speed and if your climate is so tough, you might even end up endangering your moat in the worst case. As it seems, you will need the moat/brook connection later to KEEP the lake from drying up just like the ponds.

I don't think you can use the moat connection that exists and have to use some alternative, like the tower you mentioned. Basically, I think you should try to first store enough water to fill the lake in one swoop, have that water fill the lake and the connector to the moat and then leave it up to the brook to keep everything stable.

So, in between, you may need a rather unsightly construction for the containment of the water and some pumps, but once the lake is there, you should be able to get rid of it, and no one will ever know :) :)

Good luck, and I hope my ideas help at least a bit.

Deathworks

[Shakma]

I'm surprised the water made it that far.  It's partly the fact that the water has a second area to go (off the map) that is limiting it's reach.  If you have floodgates at the current brook/moat connection, close them and just a single pump should be enough to fill the moat and lake eventually.  You could put the pump underground to hide it and prevent overflow so it can be always on with no flooding.  From there just depends if you want it powered or not.  I don't think a windmill is really out of place at all or a waterwheel.

[Hawkfrost]

(^_^;;

Ok, this has been bugging me, what does that mean?

[Ametsala]

Reading your post made me do a design... Like I wouldn't have a lot of better things to do... 

Ground floor that acts as the dining room:
There's an alley of walls(pillars) and statues in the middle that leads to the throne of the king.
Next to the king/queen are seats for the duke/duchess and next to them are seats for advisor/hammerer/tax collector/mayor/CoG/dungeonmaster
The commoners sit in the greater area in between pillars and the outer walls.
In the middle there's a hole in the ceiling for light.
Over the entrance and noble area ceiling is of green glass.
In corners are up/downstairs to underground foodstocks and second(&third) floor.

Second floor:
The second floor is a rectangle, that has two balconies of clear glass. (The clear glass ceiling of the first floor.)
Inside is a hole in the middle to let light through.
Inside are possibly some bedrooms/offices/whatever.
By the hole are stairs up.

(Third floor
Layout like second floor, no balconies.
By the hole are up/down stairs.)

4th floor:
Base of a green&crystal glass dome.
Balcony over second(third) floor.
Third floor would be good if a view over the battlements is desired.

5th-8th floors:
A dome made of green&clear glass (with gem windows).
Revolves around the hole that goes through the building.
Clear glass forms images/shapes in greenglass. (Even a line from the lowest floor up is better than plain green...maybe)

9 th floor: A Balcony above the dome. Middle is clear glass over the hole in the middle of the building.

If it was a dwarven fortress there would be a water/magmafall through the hole, but humans are weird and like daylight so there's only a 'lightfall'.

My design drawn:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

I trust you can figure where to build floors...
W = Wall
i = Clear glass window/wall
g = Green glass window/wall
+ = Balcony (Clear glass on 2nd & 9th floor)
S = Statue
t = throne
T = Table
X = Up/Down stairs
V = Down stairs
^ = Up stairs
. = channel
D = Door

Ground floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1     WiWiWiWiWiiWiWiWiWiW     
2    WW                  WW    
3   WWX ttt ttt  ttt ttt XWW   
4  gg   TTT TTT  TTT TTT   g  
5  W    TTT TTT  TTT TTT   W  
6  g tT ttt ttt  ttt ttt   g  
7 WW tT                    WW  
8 g  tT W   W   W   W   W   g
9 W tT  S   S   S   S   S   D
0WStT                       D
1ii                         g
2WStT                       D
3 W tT  S   S   S   S   S   D
4 g  tT W   W   W   W   W   g
5 WW tT                    WW
6  g tT ttt ttt  ttt ttt   g
7  W    TTT TTT  TTT TTT   W
8  gg   TTT TTT  TTT TTT   g
9   WWX ttt ttt  ttt ttt XWW
0    WW                  WW
1     WiWiWiWiWiiWiWiWiWiW
 123456789012345678901234567890

Second floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1     WiWiWiWiWiiWiWiWiWiW
2    WW                  WW
3   WWX                  XWW
4  +g  WWWWWWWW  WWWWWWWW  g+
5  +W  W      W  W      W  W+
6  +g  W      W  W      w  g+
7 ++W  W   WWWW  WWWW   W  W++
8 ++g  W   W        W   W  g++
9 ++W  WWWWW ^....^ WWWWW  W++
0+++D        ......        D+++
1+++W  ..... ...... .....  W+++
2+++D        ......        D+++
3 ++W  WWWWW ^....^ WWWWW  W++
4 ++g  W   W        W   W  g++
5 ++W  W   WWWW  WWWW   W  W++
6  +g  W      W  W      W  g+
7  +W  W      W  W      W  W+
8  +g  WWWWWWWW  WWWWWWWW  g+
9   WWX                  XWW
0    WW                  WW
1     WiWiWiWiWiiWiWiWiWiW
 123456789012345678901234567890

3rd floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1     WiWiWiWiWiiWiWiWiWiW
2    WW                  WW
3   WWV                  VWW
4   g  WWWWWWWW  WWWWWWWW  W
5   W  W      W  W      W  g
6   g  W      W  W      w  W
7   W  W   WWWW  WWWW   W  g
8   g  W   W        W   W  W
9   W  WWWWW X....X WWWWW  g
0   D        ......        D
1   W  ..... ...... .....  W
2   D        ......        D
3   W  WWWWW X....X WWWWW  W
4   g  W   W        W   W  g
5   W  W   WWWW  WWWW   W  W
6   g  W      W  W      W  g
7   W  W      W  W      W  W
8   g  WWWWWWWW  WWWWWWWW  g
9   WWV                  VWW
0    WW                  WW
1     WiWiWiWiWiiWiWiWiWiW
 123456789012345678901234567890

4th floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1     ++++++++++++++++++++
2    ++++++++++++++++++++++
3   ++++++++++++++++++++++++
4   ++++++++ggiDDigg++++++++
5   +++++++ig      gi+++++++
6   ++++++gg        gg++++++
7   +++++ig          gi+++++
8   ++++gg            gg++++
9   +++ii    X....X    ii+++
0   +++D     ......     D+++
1   +++i ... ...... ... g+++
2   +++D     ......     D+++
3   +++ii    X....X    ii+++
4   ++++gg            gg++++
5   +++++ig          gi+++++
6   ++++++gg        gg++++++
7   +++++++ig      gi+++++++
8   ++++++++ggiDDigg++++++++
9   ++++++++++++++++++++++++
0    ++++++++++++++++++++++
1     ++++++++++++++++++++
 123456789012345678901234567890

5th floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1
2
3
4          
5           ggiggigg
6          gg      gg
7         gi        ig
8        gg          gg
9       ii   X....X   ii
0       g    ......    g
1       g .. ...... .. g
2       g    ......    g
3       ii   X....X   ii
4        gg          gg
5         gi        ig
6          gg      gg
7           ggiggigg
8
9
0   
1   
 123456789012345678901234567890

6th floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1
2
3
4          
5          
6           ggiggigg
7          ig      gi
8         gg        gg
9        ii  X....X  ii
0        g   ......   g
1        g . ...... . g
2        g   ......   g
3        ii  X....X  ii
4         gg        gg
5          gg      gg
6           ggiggigg
7          
8
9
0   
1   
 123456789012345678901234567890

7th floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1
2
3
4          
5          
6          
7           ggiggigg
8          gi      ig
9         ii X....X ii
0         g  ......  g
1         g  ......  g
2         g  ......  g
3         ii X....X ii
4          gi      ig
5           ggiggigg
6           
7          
8
9
0   
1   
 123456789012345678901234567890

8th floor
0123456789012345678901234567890
1
2
3
4          
5          
6          
7          
8           ggiggigi
9          iiX....Xii
0          g ...... g
1          g ...... g
2          g ...... g
3          iiX....Xii
4           igiggigi
5          
6           
7          
8
9
0   
1   
 123456789012345678901234567890

9th floor:
0123456789012345678901234567890
1
2
3
4          
5          
6          
7          
8           S++++++S
9          S+X++++X+S
0          ++++++++++
1          ++++++++++
2          ++++++++++
3          S+X++++X+S
4           S++++++S
5          
6           
7          
8
9
0   
1   
 123456789012345678901234567890



Edit: Yes, I'm from Finland where ground floor is usually considered 1st floor, thus the floor numbering might seem a bit weird.

[Duke 2.0]

 Hmm, that might just work. Now mind you I'll be adding a few little things to make it a bit less dwarven, but I like the design. Thanks. Now to just put into some raster program and see how it looks in not-text.

 
 From what I can see, it would be best if the moat were to be drained before any major work is done on it. This would be an excellent time to test how evaporation works here. I think only water in pools evaporates particularly quickly, so if this is true I'll have to pave over the murky pool tiles once this is done.
 And an idea has hit me. Can cave-ins destroy constructed furniture like floodgates? I mean being collapsed on, not collapsing themselves. I can live with junk in the moat, as I'm sure quite a few human castles did use them as a form of garbage dump. With this I could section off the moat as to gradually fill it up. Then I just collapse floors on the floodgate walls and I'm good.

 Now, on to work! And thank you everybody!

[Strife26]

You can [h]ide the floodgates, right?

If you are already taking liberties with the windows, why not?

[Duke 2.0]

 I prefer to take as few liberties as possible here.