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[Cthulhu]

For me, it requires a variety of things to do in groups while leveling up, as well as reasonable pvp combat once you get to the highest level. WoW failed on both those accounts for me. Spent first twenty and last ten levels to 60 pretty much solo, while in between those two was fairly fun. Plenty of dungeons to delve, many different things to do and make. Until you hit 60. (Note this is pre expansion packs.) Then you have to run one or two dungeons 100s of times to get your gear so you can run one specific dungeon hundreds of times to get more gear so you can run one more dungeon hundreds of times so you can get more gear. I know it sounds like I am saying one thing and wanting another but I'm not. I loved every dungeon I ran the first 20 times. By my 50th excursion into MC, having netted maybe 1 actual upgrade and some crap no one else needed, it gets pretty boring. Oh, and shitty playerbase that doesn't know shit about how to run a roster for MC. I destroyed that guild from the inside though, so I'm pretty happy.

As for pvp, if one class is going to be massively weaker then the other classes, tell them up front. I got pretty damn good as a pvp warlock, but it never mattered because every other class had ways specifically designed to beat warlocks, even though they were pretty much balanced against the other classes. Its not fun when you can only manage to get off two effective attacks before you die against anyone, and those attacks take off MAYBE 1/4 total of their life.

It may be a bit late for this, but most of the PvE issues you mention are gone.

Tier sets are 5-piece instead of 8-piece, so it's not as hard to get the full set.  Dungeons are only 10- and 25-man instead of 40-man, so you're more likely to get gear.  Instead of tier pieces being dropped, tier tokens are dropped, each usable by three classes, that can be turned in for Tier gear.  Since there are only three tier items per boss,  you're much more likely to get something you can use.  Some people say it's being watered down, but it's really just making it so you don't have to be UB3R1337HARDC0RE to have high-end gear.

PvP-wise, I was a huge PvP person at level 70, and for the most part, it was pretty balanced.  I remember it feeling very unfair at some points, but as you get better, you notice it's not that bad.  Once I found my perfect spec, I could take people with vastly superior gear in a one-on-one fight and still win.  That's a rare thing though.  Locks seem like the kind of class that would do best DoTing people who are already in a fight.

[beorn080]

In group PvP, the classes are indeed fairly well balanced. Locks DoT, Priests heal, mages CC and DPS, yadda yadda yadda. I was referring to 1v1 PvP. Locks get 3 shots of CC that get broken by any damage AND have multiple reusable methods of stopping or curing it, ranging from undead's racial to incredibly cheap PvP loot to inherent class skills. That means that one entire branch of attacks are useless until we have exhausted those three CCs and have done hopefully around 3-4k damage, assuming at least 2 crits from shadowbolts. Now, once our fear's have been exhausted due to diminishing returns, we have no instant attacks like every other class, our DoTs require time to do any respectable damage and disperse on our death, and no method of healing ourselves or escape. I've spent much time trying to figure out how to beat other classes in PvP, and I determined that my best shot was engineering. Had to add in a whole new set of skills in order to give myself a chance in combat. Yes, we have demons, all of whom do far less DPS then a good hunter pet, and whose other skills are limited in PvP. If I had a felhunter out, I stand an even chance against mages and about a 1/4 chance against most other casters. If I have a succubus out, I have about a 1/4 chance against most non caster types. Those both cost me resourses that are, admittedly, recoverable, but only if I kill a mob that would give exp with a spell that does 10 DPS a second. Great fun. When I was 60, lvl 45 rogues could kill me due to their broken nature and with the undead, their inherent anti seduce.

[JoshuaFH]

I've been daydreaming for the longest time my ideal MMO that I personally think would be terrific fun. I wanna ask some more questions though before I elaborate on it.

How would you feel about having genuine command of a old-style sail boat, with realistic control (sways with strong current and waves, needs to move with the wind, giant and unwieldy almost, etc) where you and other players can sail, man cannons, move about the ship in real time, and perhaps attack other ships?

Think Half-life 2 meets Sid Meier's Pirates.

[beorn080]

Too complicated to simulate. Take your standard three masted square rigged ship. There are 21 different sails to contend with, each providing a different push against the wind. Ships sail faster in most situations without all their sails out. Then there's a few variations on steering, with and without rudders, damage to specific parts of the rigging, the multitude of variations on ships, be they shallow draught, round or sharp beaked, or even if they are flush or quarter decked. All such aspects affect a ships performance, and they haven't yet made a decent single player navel SIM.

Granted, I wouldn't mind a pirates type MMORPG. Would just be difficult to simulate a small fleet of 30 ships, let alone a battle such as the battle of trafalgar, with hundreds of ships of the line alone on each side.

[JoshuaFH]

Perhaps I used the word "realistic" a bit too loosely in my example, I didn't mean perfectly, anally realistic, but realistic enough to keep people immersed, with most of the very small details purposefully excluded.

[beorn080]

The problem is that when on such a large ship, there is no such thing as a small detail. Either you handwave most of the technical stuff, or you have to simulate as much as possible. Things as minor as shifting a pair of cannons farther aft or knocking the wedges out from around the mast can make a significant difference in a ships performance. A ship thats too much by the head digs into the water instead of gliding over it. There is a reason that in the heyday of the British navy, you started your career as an officer as a midshipman at 11 to 13 if possible. That way, by the time you reach captaincy at 20-25 if you were lucky, you've had 10+ years of practical training. Lets not even get started on navigation and the spherical trig required to navigate the globe.

[JoshuaFH]

I had no idea you knew so much about boats and boating Beorn, it's really impressive. I never would have guessed sailing a boat would be so complicated.

In this light, allow me to try to explain better what I have in my mind. Think Wind Waker, except you're on a much bigger boat that's more difficult to control, with other players, and you don't have a magic wand that controls the wind.

The style of naval warfare I'm imagining has cannons as a possible but very expensive means of combat, with more emphasis on ramming, grappling, and bow-and-arrows.

Sailing is meant to have a couple purposes for gameplay:

-as a much faster and safer method of travel up-and-down major rivers, giant lakes, and oceans.
-For transporting large amounts of goods from place to place to make in-game money.
-pirating, of course.

The combat I'm envisioning isn't of the "epic big battles" type, but of small skirmishes between 2-3 boats that don't always end in a clear winner. These battles would only get bigger if one of the sides were very organized.

Does that make more sense?

[beorn080]

Quite. However I must point out that cannons are THE weapons on ships that are capable of making transatlantic voyages. Triremes, galleys, and other such ships that are less technologically advanced cannot make transoceanic journey's due to inherent problems of logistics. Food and especially water are the major problems. True sailing ships, as you understand them, only came about after cannons became serious business. Yes, the cannons might not be the 32 pounders of a true ship of the line during the Napoleanonic wars, but a 4 or 9 pounder is still an incredible weapon. Ramming is a completely worthless attack in a sailing ship. It is a viable method of attack given a properly reinforced galley and a totally calm or nearly perfectly calm day. Grappling is a common occurence but leading a boarding attack is a risky business.

Most commonly, two ships will engage either at range or within pistol shot and batter each other. Eventually one ship would recieve a crippling blow, typically a mast shot away, and the other ship would attempt to force a boarding. With some luck, the attacking ship would overpower the crew on the deck, force the ship to surrender, and then carry the prize into port.

[JoshuaFH]

Your knowledge on the subject matter is insightful Beorn, I'll admit. However, allow me to try harder to describe the game in which this game mechanic will come in handy.

What I'm trying to get at isn't a simulation, or close representation of real-life. Players aren't gonna be spending weeks traveling from Spain to the Americas on a ship, they're gonna be in a fictional world, using small boats (like sloops) to travel along the coastline, and perhaps visit off-shore islands that aren't that far away.

They're not gonna have to constantly worry about food and water, they're not gonna have to learn how to use a sextent or take a course in astronomy, they're not gonna have to learn all the subtleties of sailing a boat you pointed out, they're not gonna do these things because I'm trying to describe a fun game experience, and not a simulation of sorts.

I don't really have my heart set on cannons, because the world I'm imagining is not technologically advanced, it doesn't have pistols or rifles or anything like that. The best long range weapons would be long bows or catapults, I'm just trying to think of a believable way for ships to sink other ships.

I'm sorry if I sound condescending Beorn, I'm just trying to describe what I'm imagining.

[beorn080]

Ok. That makes more sense. The way you originally described it made it seem like you were talking about post 1700 type sailing ships.

[JoshuaFH]

Alright, that's good. If anyone else wants to chime in with they're opinion or question, go right ahead.

Another idea I'm toying with in my fantasy MMO is the presence of a 'main antagonistic force' that opposes everyone as a whole.

What I mean by this is, the main antagonist will be a giant magically floating castle or island, called the "Sky Kingdom". The Sky Kingdom will float high in the sky and drift across the game world, in complete view of the players (who can't reach it or attack it in any way) mostly doing absolutely nothing. However, sometimes, to spice things up, dragons (or some other powerful creature) will emerge from it and attack towns or roads. The creatures won't leave, they have to be killed.

It's up to the players to watch the Sky Kingdom and defend against it's attacks. To increase the thrill of fighting, sometimes a "Dragon Rider" will come down, which is somebody riding a dragon like a knight, who is much harder to kill, but You can loot his body for his armor and weapons, which would be of a higher quality than normal armor or weapons.

Perhaps every once in a while, the Sky Kingdom can do something really interesting, like create giant Sea Monsters that it drops into the ocean, or lay a curse on a town that makes all the players that die come back as zombies/monsters or some such.

What do you think about that?

[Samyotix]

Has anyone tried this one?

http://www.runesofmagic.com/us/index.html

Supposedly a free mmorpg, though I have no idea what its suck factor could be like, and whether this is the kind of game where you have to spend cash to get items or not.

Myself, I just reactivated my WoW account and started a new char on a PvE server ...
(The PvP server I used to play on - 6x lv70 - has too many former colleagues among the friendlies, and too many good PvPers among the Horde ... I f*-**ing hate PvP ... Levelling is incredibly fast nowadays, and at lv27 (warlock) I keep getting invited to run lowie dungeons with other low-level chars.

Warhammer refused to start on my PC ... but then, it dooesn't quite seem the ideal game for a fanatical PvP-hater and carebear such as me

[Cthulhu]

In group PvP, the classes are indeed fairly well balanced. Locks DoT, Priests heal, mages CC and DPS, yadda yadda yadda. I was referring to 1v1 PvP. Locks get 3 shots of CC that get broken by any damage AND have multiple reusable methods of stopping or curing it, ranging from undead's racial to incredibly cheap PvP loot to inherent class skills. That means that one entire branch of attacks are useless until we have exhausted those three CCs and have done hopefully around 3-4k damage, assuming at least 2 crits from shadowbolts. Now, once our fear's have been exhausted due to diminishing returns, we have no instant attacks like every other class, our DoTs require time to do any respectable damage and disperse on our death, and no method of healing ourselves or escape. I've spent much time trying to figure out how to beat other classes in PvP, and I determined that my best shot was engineering. Had to add in a whole new set of skills in order to give myself a chance in combat. Yes, we have demons, all of whom do far less DPS then a good hunter pet, and whose other skills are limited in PvP. If I had a felhunter out, I stand an even chance against mages and about a 1/4 chance against most other casters. If I have a succubus out, I have about a 1/4 chance against most non caster types. Those both cost me resourses that are, admittedly, recoverable, but only if I kill a mob that would give exp with a spell that does 10 DPS a second. Great fun. When I was 60, lvl 45 rogues could kill me due to their broken nature and with the undead, their inherent anti seduce.

Maybe it was just back then.  Back before Wrath came out, people were clamoring for a lock nerf, I haven't heard anything recently.  Some new really good defenses against casters(Nether Protection, if you take shadow or fire damage you have a chance of becoming immune to shadow and fire damage for like five seconds, which is easily long enough to get a whole string of DoTs onto someone and start casting searing pain, it was what let me kill a shadow priest in full Season 3 arena gear when I had one Season 2 handmedown)  Felhunter's paranoia means only the sneakiest rogues attacking the most distracted locks will get their LOLISTUNUKEKEKE in without getting a death coil in their face.

Of course, they still have Cloak of Shadows, which would be more accurately named "The Caster I'm targetting is dead now", but rogues have always been a thorn in the sides of everyone, and it shows no sign of changing.  Most classes have an ability to negate stun, or can get an item, and when you break stun the beatdown starts.

[DeKaFu]

I've been following the development of Darkfall Online for a couple years now. It's been in development for something like 7 years and was written off as vaporware for most of it, but it's finally getting its first official release, uh...*checks watch* tomorrow.

It's not free, but it looks pretty promising. It's first/third person, with realtime FPS-style combat and skills that increase with use. It also has a lot of emphasis on full-loot PVP and clan warfare.

I wouldn't have mentioned it, but all this talk of boats reminded me of it. One of the more highly-anticipated (by some) features is the ability to build and own your own large ship, which requires multiple people to operate (at least one to steer and one to use each cannon, I think) and attack/sink other ships. At least one of the trailers shows this in-game.

Of course, I can't really comment authoritatively on any of it since it's not out yet and I didn't get into the beta. :/
If you do look into it, be warned that parts of the site are pretty outdated, so you'd get a more accurate picture of things on the forums. Also be warned that said forums are full of idiots. :/

[Sergius]

I've never found a good free MMO.  Stopped looking after a while.  I'm just sticking to the good non-free MMO City of Heroes/Villains.

Grinding, to a certain extent, but the first...15 or so levels out of 50 are extremely fast, and the rest are rather fast.  Most customization I've ever seen allowed in an MMO, with the character creator allowing extreme customization of the appearance of your character and the rewards for many things being more stuff to make your character look awesome.  And the major update coming soon that will add a mission editor.

Missions get a bit repetitive after a while, especially the newspaper/police radio missions.  However, the plot is nice, it's all a Nemesis plot, and the developers listen to the players.  Plus, the developers have a...good sense of humor.

I just started playing the trial and I'm seriously considering subscribing after it's over. Of course I still need to have a stupid physical boxed disc delivered from the USA . I have to agree, you can easily be level 10 in a bit over an hour, and if you start teaming with other people that are over your level and hit purple baddies in missions you can easily make 2 levels in a single run.

Also, no annoying inventory management! (closest thing is the "potions" or inspirations, and the enhancements)

A great mechanic is how you can sidekick someone and turn it into your level -1 while they are near you.