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[Mephansteras]

I think that's the 'MMOs are lousy single player games' aspect. Even grinding can be fun, if you're doing it with a bunch of friends. Then it's a mildly engaging activity while you chat and hang out. Grinding on your own? That just sucks.

PvP games are, by definition, NOT single player. You generally have nothing to do if no one else is on, so you don't play at all.

[Granite26]

The problem is with games that aren't fun to play.  Different people find different games fun, but at the end of the day, any game is really just 5-10 different mechanics turned in a few combinations and delivered to you.  If you don't like the WoW style combat, you won't like WoW.  If you don't like FPS, you won't like TF2...  RPGs that have you playing to the next tier give you a sense of accomplishment, but at some point, you'll get over that thrill and start playing the game because it's fun.  Take CoD IV, for instance.  You finished the online part of that, and your reward was a tick on your icon and the chance to do it all over again.  But people did it, because they they thought it was fun to play the game.

The same way with WoW. Some people enjoy it.  Some people don't.  If the fun of the mechanic runs out before the game does... it's a grind

[Yanlin]

The core problem with WoW is that it's a pay to play game. So the longer they keep people playing, the more they get paid. So they want the grind to be the core part of gameplay. Look at Eve. It literally has you NOT PLAY THE GAME WHILE STILL PAYING to level up.

[Granite26]

If you mean they are stretching out their fixed content to last the correct amount (Players * Time, reduce time, players win and leave, increase time, lose players to boredom), I'll agree.  It's not their fault you are an outlier.  Making the game appeal to your anti-grind sensibilities would cost them money, because they'd get you, but let 6 other people go early.

Doesn't make it a bad game

[Dasleah]

The core problem with WoW is that it's a pay to play game. So the longer they keep people playing, the more they get paid. So they want the grind to be the core part of gameplay. Look at Eve. It literally has you NOT PLAY THE GAME WHILE STILL PAYING to level up.

So, you hate WoW because the company running it has to make a profit? To pay for all the hardware farms and employee's salaries? Huh.

And I've always thought it was weird that Eve still trained your skills even when you're not playing. They're saying "Ha! You don't even have to play our game to play our game! That's how cool we are!"

[Wiles]

The core problem with WoW is that it's a pay to play game. So the longer they keep people playing, the more they get paid. So they want the grind to be the core part of gameplay. Look at Eve. It literally has you NOT PLAY THE GAME WHILE STILL PAYING to level up.

So, you hate WoW because the company running it has to make a profit? To pay for all the hardware farms and employee's salaries? Huh.

When you take someone's argument and reword it in such a way that it means something different than what they intended it to mean to make it support your side of the argument does not make your argument look any more convincing. 

[Yanlin]

The core problem with WoW is that it's a pay to play game. So the longer they keep people playing, the more they get paid. So they want the grind to be the core part of gameplay. Look at Eve. It literally has you NOT PLAY THE GAME WHILE STILL PAYING to level up.

So, you hate WoW because the company running it has to make a profit? To pay for all the hardware farms and employee's salaries? Huh.

When you take someone's argument and reword it in such a way that it means something different than what they intended it to mean to make it support your side of the argument does not make your argument look any more convincing. 

Thanks Wiles. The process is called "Taking things out of context"



I don't have a problem with Blizzard trying to make a profit. But I wont pay for a game that is literally work. I'd rather... Oh I don't know... WORK! Get paid! Instead of paying.

Player run corporations in Eve. In Yahtzee's words, it's a 2nd job that you pay for.

WoW. In my words. It's a grindfest that you pay for.

[Servant Corps]

What starting area has you doing that?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "Fallen" Undead had me kill off some Undead civilians that were aligned to the Burning Legions. Now, they are civilians since they just shamble around, mining their own business, and will only attack in self-defense. They aren't evil at all, in fact, the Fallen don't even regard them as sentient.

I support the Undead cause, so being forced to kill my own fellow Zeds horrifes me.

Are you sure you were playing WoW?  Nothing like that is in any of the starting areas.

Yes, I was in fact playing WoW. This was in the starting quest.

Now, I like killing as much as the next guy, but killing your own race...well, this is a Fanasty game, and in a Fanasty game, you are supposed to be heroic. It's not heroic at all to kill civilians, and if you expect me to think that killing innocent people is fun, well, it's not.

[Rilder]

Player run corporations in Eve. In Yahtzee's words, it's a 2nd job that you pay for.

You haven't played it much have you?

You really have to experiance the thrill of 0.0 living before you judge EvE.

Nothing like flying with a Squadron of 5 or so ships knowing that behind the next gate you and your mates could be wiped by a bigger fleet or the epic battles that happen between a couple small groups.

Don't even have to be a combat pilot, I remember this armed pos siege, I'm in a Basilisk class Shield Repper ship, had to have strong reflexes for that

Man I miss it. =/

Edit: Also for game suggestions, Navyfield is a bit of a grindfest pvp game but its good fun. (Don't be fooled by the ability to buy premium ships, they've been nerfed to hell ages ago and are pretty much only for coolness and asthetics.)

[eerr]

Wow. This game is fun. Unlike some OTHER MMORPGs. Yanlin glares at WoW.

i understand its somewhere between useless complaining, and fruitful insight,
but you can't replace something if you don't know why it doesn't fit, or isn't enough

edit: i stopped reading too soon


ok, guildwars has less griding, and about half the killing is done in a story mission.
it's also more group oriented, so much so that you need to take the bots if nobody will join your party
(these days also have heros, which are like the bots but you can personalize them, somewhat.)


it focuses on hand-picking skills to put on your eight slot bar, applying  items to improve said skills, and managing health energy, and location.
it also focuses  on group combat, starting with the level 20 cap.


unfortunate drawbacks?:the quality of groupies are sometimes low. if this makes your party fail, then those people still need completion of the area, compounding the problem.

diffrent armour styles aren't significant.
you can find just about half  the armour in the game in level 20 armour sets, but won't effect your gameplay.
this greatly dampens the korean clone effect, combined with height and color options.


gameplay used to be mad broken, but new capaigns shifted the brokenness to newer characters

you need to buy all 4 campaigns to be completely pvp competative
thats 240 dollars, albiet with NO SUBSCRIPTION FEE.

[Virtz]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "Fallen" Undead had me kill off some Undead civilians that were aligned to the Burning Legions. Now, they are civilians since they just shamble around, mining their own business, and will only attack in self-defense. They aren't evil at all, in fact, the Fallen don't even regard them as sentient.

I support the Undead cause, so being forced to kill my own fellow Zeds horrifes me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not sure, but I think you'd look at this differently had you played Warcraft 3's campaign and knew what the Burning Legion stood for.

Now, I like killing as much as the next guy, but killing your own race...well, this is a Fanasty game, and in a Fanasty game, you are supposed to be heroic.(...)

Why?

[Jackrabbit]

In a fantasy game you can do whatever you want and there is something satisfying about being evil. Obviously.

[Servant Corps]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "Fallen" Undead had me kill off some Undead civilians that were aligned to the Burning Legions. Now, they are civilians since they just shamble around, mining their own business, and will only attack in self-defense. They aren't evil at all, in fact, the Fallen don't even regard them as sentient.

I support the Undead cause, so being forced to kill my own fellow Zeds horrifes me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not sure, but I think you'd look at this differently had you played Warcraft 3's campaign and knew what the Burning Legion stood for.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is a big difference between killing demons and killing some random nobody because you are told they are working for the demons and thus must be destroyed.

Please note, these Undead did not attack at all. They didn't do anything evil. They were just shambling around. If they were really evil, wouldn't they attacked me first or destroyed the town or anything? Instead, they just stood there, shambling around, doing nothing important but loitering. They only attacked in self-defense, to protect themselves, when I attacked them. Now tell me, is that the actions of an evil monster? To attack purely in self-defense?

Now, I like killing as much as the next guy, but killing your own race...well, this is a Fanasty game, and in a Fanasty game, you are supposed to be heroic.(...)

Why?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Because that's heroic fanasty is about. Being a hero. If I didn't want to be a hero, I would be better off playing DF or a more gritty world.

[Jackrabbit]

There should be more evil MMORPGs.

[Okenido]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "Fallen" Undead had me kill off some Undead civilians that were aligned to the Burning Legions. Now, they are civilians since they just shamble around, mining their own business, and will only attack in self-defense. They aren't evil at all, in fact, the Fallen don't even regard them as sentient.

I support the Undead cause, so being forced to kill my own fellow Zeds horrifes me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not sure, but I think you'd look at this differently had you played Warcraft 3's campaign and knew what the Burning Legion stood for.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is a big difference between killing demons and killing some random nobody because you are told they are working for the demons and thus must be destroyed.

Please note, these Undead did not attack at all. They didn't do anything evil. They were just shambling around. If they were really evil, wouldn't they attacked me first or destroyed the town or anything? Instead, they just stood there, shambling around, doing nothing important but loitering. They only attacked in self-defense, to protect themselves, when I attacked them. Now tell me, is that the actions of an evil monster? To attack purely in self-defense?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Undead, (Under Arthas.) and the Forsaken are actually completely different races, derived from the same point.
As the the undead cannot be converted into the Forsaken as they have no will, the Forsaken believe it is just better to kill them anyway.