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[Deathworks]

Hello!

First of all, I need to apologize. This will be my final post in this thread and I know it is in rather bad style to leave an ongoing discussion like this. However, I notice that I get too excited and emotional about this issue.

The problem I have is, as I mentioned, the really messed-up way Germans are looking at the Holocaust as some kind of biblical catastrophe with Hitler being something like satan or maybe the son of satan. This irrational handling of the issue and mystifying is, in my opinion, one of the main reasons why the neo nazi movements are so healthy in Germany and gaining ground: the official debate makes them believe that there is some magical power associated with the Third Reich.

Anyhow, because of the way Germany (mis)handles the issue, I get really annoyed by it quickly, and I have found that my responses here have taken on an unnecessary aggressiveness.

Please do allow me to state that I am still not convinced that Hitler had done anything that makes it plausible to call him a genius (I agree that Austria wanted to get united, sharing the same ideological problems, and I also wish to point out that Hitler had the advantage of being a native Austrian, so he knew the territory). Please note that I do not say this because of any moral evaluation of his deeds, but only on the intellectual merit of his deeds - I acknowledge that you can be brillant and yet an absolutely wicked person. I felt I needed to clarify this as people might misinterpret me there.

Again, I apologize for this somewhat cowardly move, but I am really afraid that my further participation here would cause more harm than good.

Deathworks

[Faces of Mu]

I am really afraid that my further participation here would cause more harm than good.

Deathworks

Respected. Thanks for your interested contributions, DW.

[Il Palazzo]

Actually I fully sympathize with Deathworks, as the neverending need for self-flaggelation that the Germany seems to express at a slightest mention of Holocaust or IIWW in general is confusing at least. It's as if the Nurimberg trials marked the Germans as the only society who ever commited genocide, or started war.
Probably 90% of other nations have some similar stuff in their history, and yet, it's only ok to look down on the Germans.

[Rilder]

Actually I fully sympathize with Deathworks, as the neverending need for self-flaggelation that the Germany seems to express at a slightest mention of Holocaust or IIWW in general is confusing at least. It's as if the Nurimberg trials marked the Germans as the only society who ever commited genocide, or started war.
Probably 90% of other nations have some similar stuff in their history, and yet, it's only ok to look down on the Germans.

IIRC Mithridates the Great of Pontos at some point during the Mithridaic wars with Roma Ordered every single Roman living in Pontos to be hunted down and killed.

[mainiac]

Self-flagellation would imply that Germans intentionally harm themselves for no purpose other then guilt.  All Germany is doing is maintaining a holocaust-centric view of history.  Maybe they shouldn't make their history so holocaust-centric.  But it's not like any other country has a very balanced view of their own history. 

And besides maybe Russia (who does so out of expediency), who "looks down" on the modern Germany?  People might make jokes about Germans being militaristic, but Germany was rehabilitated long ago.  Compare that to the fury throughout Asia that Japan still honors war criminals or the disillusionment felt by racial minorities throughout the world.

[Il Palazzo]

Right, nobody looks down on Germans. Apparently it's possible for a German to end up with his head in a toilet "for the IIWW", as one guy described his experiences from visiting the US(he's a unihockey player, went to play a match). Of course, he could've lied about this, but I can hardly see any reason why he should want to do so.
In Poland, every time the Germans try to mention that they've got a bunch of people who were forced to leave their homes in what is now western Poland(roughly), the local media go in flames and start their rant that essentialy boils down to: "shuddup! you fu***ng started the war, you have nothing to say".

edit:corrected some bad grammar(there might be more, of course)

[Yanlin]

Over here, I usually do a bit of lousy German as a joke. People SERIOUSLY call me a nazi for speaking German.

Also, when I refuse to speak Hebrew when a bunch of Hebrew noobs invade an English server, they call me a nazi and ensue with the normal idiot tactic of "Shut up! You have nothing to say!"

[mainiac]

Right, nobody looks down on Germans. Apparently it's possible for a German to end up with his head in the toilet "for the IIWW", as one guy described his experiences from visiting the US(he's a unihockey player, went to play a match). Of course, he could've lied about this, but I can hardly see any reason why he should want to do so.

Wow, an isolated incident.  Because you can't find isolated incidents of all kind of stupid reasons.

In Poland, every time the Germans try to mention that they've got a bunch of people who got forced to leave their homes in what is now western Poland(roughly), the local media go in flames and start their rant that essentialy boils down to: "shuddup! you fu***ng started the war, you have nothing to say".

So... if one brings up events that happened sixty years ago... it'll be justified by events that happened seventy years ago.  Gee, why can't they stop living in the past?

[Il Palazzo]

(Hmmm, I can sense some animosity brewing there. Surely you're not being influenced by our little game of EFS. Right?)
Sure, it's just one incident that I can tell you about. But then, I don't meet that many Germans who could tell me about their experiences. All I was saying, is that this sort of stuff happens. Damn, maybe I was lucky and happened to talk to the only guy who ever got treated this way. At least you can't say that "nobody" looks down on Germans.

So... if one brings up events that happened sixty years ago... it'll be justified by events that happened seventy years ago.  Gee, why can't they stop living in the past?

I can see where are you coming from with this one. It's not that these two events are related, it's just that there's no meaningful dialog on their subject. It's always the "victims" banging the "evil, guilty Germans" on their heads with a hammer of justice, so to speak.

[mainiac]

"nobody"

Well yeah, but there's prejudice against more or less every group on the planet.  Is prejudice against Germans particularly bad?

I can see where are you coming from with this one. It's not that these two events are related, it's just that there's no meaningful dialog on their subject. It's always the "victims" banging the "evil, guilty Germans" on their heads with a hammer of justice, so to speak.

Well, what exactly do you want?  Should Poland be paying reparations?  Think for a second about the floodgates that would open...  It wouldn't just be horrible for Germany, it would re-open horrible wounds throughout Europe.

If the children of the refugees didn't have a home, then you'd want to help them.  But the Germany is perfectly capable of taking care of the children of the displaced.  Isn't it better to let the matter drop?

[Granite26]

To the OP, I can appreciate that your friend is willing to question where he gets his knowledge from (his epistemology).

I think that's the core bit of it.  For thousands of years, people thought the Earth was flat, the center of the solar system, and the center of the universe.  They believed in humors, gods, 4 elements and whatever else.

Just because everybody tells you something doesn't make it true.  This is especially true when 'everybody' is telling you other things you don't believe.  Take for instance the entire societies with their own newspapers and lists of facts that everybody 'knows' to be true.  Why would you believe some foreigner with a list of names, when your own (personage of authority) tells you they are lying to you, especially when they are using it as justification to act against your interests and for some other group?

I'll also weigh in on 'denying isn't innately evil' with the caveat that 99 times out of 100 or better it's used to further evil ends.

Secondly, be careful about your implied value judgements.  Genius doesn't imply good, it just implies intelligence and skill at reaching a desired output.  It's how you use it that gives it moral alignment.

Thirdly, be careful not to equate any measurable human quality with humanity and worth.  There are a lot of people scared to death that if we admit that left handed people are smarter, nicer, more likely to have a full head of hair, or are better atheletes will immediately serve as a justification to use policy to elevate or discrimenate against them.  That's scary, because it leaves our moral standpoint in the arms of future science.  You can say that two peoples worth is the same, but if you start equating that to different groups measurable equality, you're leaving the door open for future science to justify future eugenics.  The answer isn't to say A = B because A MUST equal B for great justice, it's to say that A and B aren't even a factor.

TL\DR : Nobody has or is even capable of 'Proving' the holocaust in this forum or over the internet.  The only way to prove is to see the records and to carbon date them yourself, and see bodies and carbon date them and whatnot.  There is in fact, no way to 'prove' it beyond going back to perhaps 50 original sources.  Everything has spread from that.

*Not saying I don't believe...

[Il Palazzo]

mainiac: Well, I might be biased about this particular prejudice, after all, it's largely based on my experiences of living in this particular country.
At least I can say that there's a giant disparity between the level of prejudice against Germans and Soviets(which roughly translates to Russians), while both nations gave at least equally strong reasons to be resented here.

Well, what exactly do you want?  Should Poland be paying reparations?  Think for a second about the floodgates that would open...  It wouldn't just be horrible for Germany, it would re-open horrible wounds throughout Europe.

If the children of the refugees didn't have a home, then you'd want to help them.  But the Germany is perfectly capable of taking care of the children of the displaced.  Isn't it better to let the matter drop?

See, that's a sort of meaningful argumentation that I'd like to hear, and which is absent in our(Polish) media. It's just flames and RAAGE on and on.
Even the existence of some society that gathers all those Germans who got kicked out of their houses(forgot the name) is treated like "how dare they victimize themselves!?" every time it comes up in the news.

[mainiac]

At least I can say that there's a giant disparity between the level of prejudice against Germans and Soviets(which roughly translates to Russians), while both nations gave at least equally strong reasons to be resented here.

I strongly disagree.  The Soviets may have been corrupt and cruel, but the Nazi's goals were far, far worse.  After Stalin, the Soviet Union wasn't nearly so bad.  The Soviets held back their aggression before WWIII started.  The Nazi's were not stopped until they were completely destroyed.

See, that's a sort of meaningful argumentation that I'd like to hear, and which is absent in our(Polish) media. It's just flames and RAAGE on and on.
Even the existence of some society that gathers all those Germans who got kicked out of their houses(forgot the name) is treated like "how dare they victimize themselves!?" every time it comes up in the news.

I am suspicious of any argument which uses intellectual honesty as a club to beat down it's opponents.  You start with the (debatable) assertion that those who don't want to talk about this issue are presumptuous.  From this limited observation, you make very far ranging conjectures and turn them into caricatures.

[Il Palazzo]

ehh, having the choice between using "intelectual honesty" and "zealous narrowmindeness" as a club to use in battling your oponnents, I'll take the first one, any time of day and night.

as for the Soviets, I'm inclined to believe people like Victor Suvorov(former KGB officer, turned writer), who claim that Stalin was willing to invade Europe on his own, and if he didn't, it was only because Hitler stroke first, which allowed him to jump into the shoes of a "good guy". This is all but a speculation of course.
Mind you that Soviets "held back their aggression before IIIWW started", because the realities changed - the allies had the Bomb, so any large conflict could end in mutual, total destruction = nothing to gain there.

Anyway, claiming that Hitler's goals were more or less cruel than somebody else's is just guessing. What you can judge the nations in question by, is what they actually did. And from my perspective, as a citizen of a country that got invaded by both, and ended up occupied by one of them for 6 years, and by the other for 45, I'm inclined to stongly disagree with any notion of putting the Soviets higher on the moral ladder than Nazis.

[mainiac]

Look, whatever.  The Nazi started a war that hurt everyone, thus everyone is pissed.  The Soviets started much smaller wars that cost far fewer lives.  The Ukrainians got an especially bad deal, but in Soviet Russia, shit was already pretty bad to begin with.  So the nazi's went out to make shit while the soviets basically made shit at home.  We can debate 'till the cows come home which one is worse.  But surely you can see why people instinctively say the nazis are worse.

ehh, having the choice between using "intelectual honesty" and "zealous narrowmindeness" as a club to use in battling your oponnents, I'll take the first one, any time of day and night.

The point is supposed to be that if you use intellectual honesty as a club to beat people with, you aren't really defending intellectual honesty at all, just taking cheap shots.  The form of your argument can be used to attack anyone, anywhere.

Look, consider if I'd said "OMG, how dare you criticize them for having painful memories!  You bastard!"  Would that be a productive argument?

You are painting with a very broad stroke by characterizing those you disagree with as having an emotional, irrational reaction.

In my experience, those actually trying to defend intellectual honesty will point to very specific cases they wish to have addressed.  What they won't do is stereotype their opponents.  You are much closer to the latter behavior here, as near as I can tell.