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Author Topic: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?  (Read 15713 times)

woose1

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2009, 10:35:18 am »

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh Shiz.

Religion vs. science discussion coming right here bitches!
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:P

Or probably more accurate....
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chaoticag

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2009, 11:32:00 am »

Argument:
I don't see how the claim "Religion makes better" people is supported by facts, and there have been cases where the reverse is true:

Evidence:
-The Spanish Inquisition.
-The Crusades.
-The 100 year war.
-The Arab Israeli conflict.
-Burning Heratics and witches.
-Destruction of African temples and artefacts (ongoing)
-Persecution of people based on sexual preferences (ongoing)
-support of slavery.
-Rwanda's genocide?

Comment:
and this is just off the top of my head.
Ethics can exist independant of religious views; you do not need God to enforce what is right and wrong. People themselves can do just fine.
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Sergius

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2009, 11:32:32 am »

I must say that religious intolerance is nearly always one of the tenets of religions. The stance of one religion against others is almost always: 1) they're wrong, 2) they're worshipping the same as us with another name

You can say that violence or acting upon this intolerance isn't necessarily done by all the practitioners. But it is there, underlined in the definition or books or whatever. It's like saying that you are a Christian but don't go to church. Or that you don't take the stuff literally. But the stuff is there.

It is my POV that the ones that are actively trying to fuck everyone else with their religion are the ones that "get" religion correctly, the rest are just wishy washy about it.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2009, 11:52:10 am »

Quote from: mainiac
So yeah, the problem isn't that the matter is clear, the problem is you are under informed.
And you're doing a stellar job here by not informing me. This is actually exactly the case I was talking about: you just put out your estimates which you've no actual evidence for and call me misinformed for doing the same.
I just want to see some concrete evidence, like: Icek Edelbaum, born in 1900, resident of Warsaw, street X, relocated to Aushwitz in November 1943, died on July 1944.
If you think that your numbers are the definite ones just by the virtue of you believing in somebody's word about it, keep in mind that in Nuremberg, Rudolf Hess testified that in Aushwitz 3 milion people died, while today the Aushiwitz-Birkenau State Museum claims the number to be 1.1 milion. If one cannot believe in the testimony of the camp's commandant, then is it really so strange that every other number presented without strong, factual backing is difficult to believe in?
(here's a wikipedia's estimate at 2.7 milion total deaths in death camps, so as to compare with your 5 to 7 milion)
Quote from: mainiac
Paradigms aren't about blindly assuming things are identical, they are about making coherant comparisons realizing the differences.
hehehe, here we go again, the continuation of 9/11 thread, eh? So, what is the difference? That killing Jews is more evil than killing e.g. Ukrainians, POWs, the so called "political prisoners"? Mass murder is mass murder.

Quote from: mainiac
A simple cursory familiarity with the topic would tell you that the holocaust was intentional murder while the soviet mass killings were the plundering of resources, the time frame was different, the motives were different, the organazational choices were different, pretty much every damn thing was different.  That enough for you?
Oohohoho, you've no idea what was going on around here when the Soviets came. We've got Katyn's massacre=let's kill these intelectual elites, it'd be easier to govern the occupied Poland; Mass deportations to Gulags, where milions(or just over milion according to Soviet data) died without the need for gas chambers; in Ukraine the Holodomor caused deaths of another milions. Can you claim that it's less evil to starve whole communities than kill them by hand?
Not to mention the fate of German POWs that somehow dissapeared in Soviet camps(e.g. of von Paulus' 6th Army's 90 thousand captured at Stalingrad, 5 thousand lived to return home)
That's only what I remember, get some history major to extend this list. I know that there was an anti-Zionist movement in USSR, but have no idea if it was violent or not.
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chaoticag

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2009, 12:03:02 pm »

(here's a wikipedia's estimate at 2.7 milion total deaths in death camps, so as to compare with your 5 to 7 milion)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust The irony of it all.
Besides the actual estimate of deaths floats at 9-11 million, as this figure includes the other persecuted people.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2009, 12:17:29 pm »

That is exactly what I meant. I just want to have a name by name analysis of all the camps' inmates, a definite answer to show to all those people(and myself) who try either to diminish or overblow the death toll. We could end every future flamewar over this subject by quoting a paper like that.
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Neonivek

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2009, 12:44:53 pm »

Of the ones I know

"-The Crusades."
-The Religious influence only got more people to join then normally possible as well the Church Funded several groups. That is as far as the Crusades were really Religious.
--Truth be known... all those practices such as slaughtering entire villages are a cultural artifact and not Religious. It would have happened in absense of Religion.

"-Burning Heratics and witches."
-Interestingly enough... Witches were often an attempt by Governments to control the women population. In every account I can remember it was the Government in charge who created witches and not the government (France and Britian). Witches are also a bad example anyhow. It would have happened in absense of Religion.
--As for Heratics... Yeah Ill give you that. I can pick my battles.

"-support of slavery."
-For the most part... it is just people finding a justification for slavery within their Religion or a Religion trying to ensure its people don't abandon it by writing them off.

"-Rwanda's genocide?"
-No, while I am sure there is some religious influence... It was mostly a cultural thing. (Basically one people was on top and harassed the people at the bottom... The bottom people became the top... and destroyed the bottom). It would have happened in absense of religion.

Lets try to keep Religion Bashing to a minimal. I mean... the KKK use Religious passages to justify what they do (a bit Ironically). People can justify whatever the heck they want with or without Religion.

Anyhow as for the Holocaust... It is pretty much Overblown in its importance because modern society is VERY into revisionist history. The Holocaust MUST be the worst Genocide EVER because we say it must!

I am sure 50 years from now... The Iraq War would have claimed to have had 2.5 million soldiers die.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 12:48:41 pm by Neonivek »
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Yanlin

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2009, 01:05:29 pm »

Anyhow, claiming the Holocaust was fake isn't evil...

Moon conspiracy got debunked so they needed something else to jump on.

Stating that the moon landing was fake is one thing. But claiming that the holocaust is fake? That's just evil.

How dare you misquote me!
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Dragooble

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2009, 05:49:53 pm »

OH MY GOD! a topic that has almost gotten derailed but then rerailed!(i think) activate "Tick" phrase!
SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON
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Rilder

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2009, 06:05:46 am »

Moon conspiracy got debunked so they needed something else to jump on.

Stating that the moon landing was fake is one thing. But claiming that the holocaust is fake? That's just evil.
Wait a minute? They finally Debunked the Moon conspiracy? WOW! where?

Mythbusters.

I say we have Adam and Jaime prove the holocaust happened.

Also, remember the good old days when Christianity didn't exist and the SPQR was still strong and not overthrown by some ass hole who wanted a Dictatorship.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 06:10:27 am by Rilder »
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Yanlin

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2009, 08:41:55 am »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khDI2MsWSYc

Watch all the parts. There's 5 of them IIRC. One is unavailable on Youtube, but you should still find a video on Youtube with a link to it on another site.

This is a good video. Even if it doesn't cover it all.

Please tell me I'm not the only guy who thinks the narrator is a robot?
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Tormy

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2009, 02:56:49 pm »

Dear OP, you better won't start a topic like this on Stormfront.... ;D
Anyway...some of my relatives were Arrow Cross soldiers [nazi organization in Hungary in 1944-1945], so usually I don't like to talk about these things.  :-X
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Yanlin

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2009, 03:17:50 pm »

Ugh. They drill the holocaust so much at school. Also if you say anything about Hitler that doesn't make him sound like the biggest dick on earth, you are automatically a nazi and must be shot.

Sheesh. The guy was a fucking genius. Manipulating the masses like that. Sure he was insane. Sure he was evil. But he was a genius. He blamed all of his country's problems on the Jews and gave half baked but still baked enough explanations. He convinced millions. He used the democratic process against itself. Hitler is a prime example why I support technocracy. Don't let the common idiot elect Hitler again.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2009, 03:40:11 pm »

I generally agree with Yanlin, except for the technocracy part.

Another positive thing we can attribute to him is that his Blitzkrieg (sp?) revolutionized modern warfare. Everyone really had to copy Hitler's tactics in order to keep up.

I wonder when we can stop talking about Hitler as though he happened yesterday. I mean, yeah, sure, he was evil. WAS evil, he's been dead for over 60 years now, he can't hurt anyone anymore.
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Deathworks

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Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2009, 04:16:01 pm »

Hello!

With all due respect, I have to disagree with the notion that Hitler was a genius.

Germany was at that time facing serious financial/social problems. The monarchy had been forcefully removed - not by the people but by verdict of outside powers. Thus, many people in Germany associated monarchy (= dictatorship) to prosperity and democracy to poverty and weakness. In addition, the military whose tactics had failed in Verdun and whose most glorious insight was realizing that WW I was impossible to win, after the peace claimed they could have won the war if the unions hadn't mobilized the German people against them (utter nonsense, the German army had maneuvered itself into a situation that was simply non-winnable, no matter how you view it). General resentments against Jews were common cultural heritage in Europe and blaming them for anything was an honored tradition among Christians (just think of the Plague a few centuries earlier - they claimed the Jews had poisoned the wells).

Now comes Hitler, a young idiot with many a slight knack for talking. He fails to get into a university (no surprise) and ends up among the destitute. He hears how the growing lower classes feel and which prejudices they have - simply because he belonged to them!

The rest of his rise to power is more or less the story of a small crook having some luck and finding people desperate to believe in any miraculous cure. Even a parrot could have claimed the power, probably, the way people felt. They longed for the old times of prosperity they had under the dictatorship of the monarch, and Hitler offered them just what they had asked for.

As for "his" ideas, most of them were actually created by other people. The concentration camps were actually a concept suggested by contempary British scientists to handle "race" issues, which were not only a concern in Germany. His highway project which helped both the economy and his war effort was actually based on plans of his predecessor, who simply had been incapable of getting the majorities, I think.

Other aspects of his war machinery were based on individuals eager to prove themselves and offering his vain egocentrism fuel, like for instance his pilot ace/boss for plane design who came up with the Stuka and its siren as a terror weapon.

If you want to see Hitler's "intelligence" at work, then look at WW II, especially the timing at which he broke the alliance with Russia, his premature aggrivation of the US, and finally, his greatest achievement - going to war against Russia during the winter. Too bad that Hitler obviously didn't know military history from just a century earlier when Napoleon got just about the same beating.

In the end, we should be thankful that Hitler was such an idiot. If he had as much intelligence as an average human, the results of WW II would probably have been more ghastly and the harm to the minorities like gays, Roma, Sinthi, Jews, and so on would have been even greater as no one in their right mind would have wasted their forces like that in the winter of the Eastern front.

The problem is that Hitler exemplifies a common pattern of people who are in trouble projecting that trouble on other people, claiming that the others somehow "conspired" to cause that awful state of affair. That accusation then turns into violence and - fortunately - into self-destruction as it is in itself a hollow shell of hate. Now, this is a very human behavior, and we are all prone to take the first step on that slope seeing fault in others. By holding up the name of Hitler and in a perverse glorifying him, people can then dehumanize this human behavior, saying that such actions are only things such an inhuman creature could cause, but the hate that the current people propagate is of a different nature. After all they are not nazis, they are not Hitler, so certainly, their hate and prejudices can not be as bad as those of him and his crew. That, I believe is one of the reasons why Hitler is still so present today: People use him to conquer the fear of what they really are.

Deathworks
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