Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 10

Author Topic: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?  (Read 15723 times)

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2009, 04:14:55 pm »

Fishers! You're back!
Logged

woose1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yay for bandwagons!
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2009, 04:16:55 pm »

Fishers! You're back!
And better than ever....

JAAAACKIE!!!!

-wait.
Logged

Hawkfrost

  • Bay Watcher
  • It's way too late to stop.
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2009, 04:30:20 pm »

Hawkfrost, stop being so edgy you'll cut yourself flailing your edgy arms about.



Wait...what?

How am I being edgy?
I was calmly stating a fact that I am confused on the matter of the holocaust.
If people want to calmly show me evidence, they can.
Logged

woose1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yay for bandwagons!
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2009, 04:33:54 pm »

Hawkfrost, stop being so edgy you'll cut yourself flailing your edgy arms about.



Wait...what?

How am I being edgy?
I was calmly stating a fact that I am confused on the matter of the holocaust.
If people want to calmly show me evidence, they can.

ANGER

...wait. You're right.
Pray, oh strange and mystical FAD, how did he become so edgy and a hazard for other people?
Logged

Onlyhestands

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2009, 04:35:54 pm »

Or you can just google it.

You want information? Do your own research if you want to find something out, we're not here to serve you.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 04:38:19 pm by Onlyhestands »
Logged
What if you didn't have any genitals, couldn't you just go naked as a dude (because showing your nipples is okay)?
What if monkeys created civilizations on the moon?

woose1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yay for bandwagons!
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2009, 04:40:59 pm »


Hm. Strange thing is, they don't look all that unhappy.
Logged

Dragooble

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2009, 04:44:59 pm »

Or you can just google it.

You want information? Do your own research if you want to find something out, we're not here to serve you.

Exactly. your here to serve ME.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged
A creature the size of europe can occupy only one tile.

Onlyhestands

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2009, 04:53:00 pm »


Hm. Strange thing is, they don't look all that unhappy.
I think they have just been rescued.
These women are not so happy
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Edit: Just gonna say: one of the reasons we have so much information about the holocaust is because the Nazis were very systematic and kept lots of records.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 04:55:50 pm by Onlyhestands »
Logged
What if you didn't have any genitals, couldn't you just go naked as a dude (because showing your nipples is okay)?
What if monkeys created civilizations on the moon?

Deathworks

  • Bay Watcher
  • There be no fortress without its feline rulers!
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2009, 05:09:25 pm »

Hi!

Well, while from a factual point of view, the holocaust is undeniable history, there are a lot of complex motivations involved in trying to disregard the event. While most of these motivations can be traced back to outright malice and racism, some of these motivations may actually stem from the way earnest people are handling the issue, especially in Germany.

First of all, there is the complex relationship between the state of Israel, Jews, and the holocaust. As these three items are often linked in discourse even today (a state, a religious group of people, an event in history), often when trying to defend Israeli policies or defending Jewish citicizens against racism, in turn racists and enemies of either Jews or the state of Israel will kind of automatically consider the reality of the holocaust as something undesirable.

Secondly, the holocaust is also linked to the old tradition of European Christians to discriminate/denounce and persecute Jews as murderers of Jesus/child eaters/poisoners of wells/conspirators/greedy banking spiders. Especially the undying accusation of a Jewish world conspiracy makes people actually believing in such a conspiracy ready to doubt the reality of the holocaust.

Then, we get to the way the holocaust is dealt with. I have rarely heard that people talk about it as a social phenomenon where a group of people (most citizens of Germany and Austria back then) was led to take violent action against innocents belonging to several groups (Jews, Sinthi/Roman a.k.a. gypsies, handicapped people, homosexuals) they had prejudices about. Instead, I have the impression that the holocaust is presented as a near mystic affair of some monstrous "German Nazis" killing "Jews", which in itself is the only definition of that crime. Those nazis back then were people just like us. People like the people living in Bremen, New York, London, Tel Aviv, Bagdad today. They were not some supernatural monsters and what happened back then was not some magical battle, but an extreme example of racism and genocide which are still all too alive all over the world. Besides making people lax in their caution about racism (after all, if it isn't hunting down those mystic "Jews", it is not the same thing, right?) and prejudice, it also removes the entire event somewhat out of history. It becomes more of a fairy tale than a real event as the participants are not shown as normal humans but witches and innocent princes.

Finally, Germany itself is suffering especially from an odd way of dealing with it. Schools kind of center their history lessons around the topic and the entire discussion in Germany runs around some mystic concept of a "special responsibility" bordering on inherited guilt. However, as I said before, the psychological/social mechanisms are not abstracted and looked at in general, but it is reduced to a mystical formula with the insignia of that age having magical power in Germany making decent people afraid and cower in fear thus becoming attractive for those who have no real perspective in life. This entire mystification in Germany has something pathological and sometimes you get the impression that modern Germany has a kind of morbid "pride" in some "special guilt" that sets them apart from the rest of the world. It is hard to explain, but there is some kind of self-definition by self-condemnation going on, and it is just as perverse as it sounds.

This utilization/mystification of the holocaust by Germany and by the state of Israel probably also makes people wary of the historical facts. With so much obvious interest in stressing the enormity of the crime, people may wonder whether it was really as huge as is claimed, or whether those profitting - in some cases in a rather perverse fashion - from it are exaggerating.

Anyhow, as far as I can tell, the holocaust did take place causing the death of hordes of innocent people only because of them belonging to one of the prejudiced against groups. And since it was born of the human mind expressing human thought patterns that are all too common even today, we should remember its lesson of "Never again" and make sure that no group of people casts doubt on the humanity of another group of people. Because that is what lies at the heart of the holocaust - the claim that some people are less human.

Deathworks
Logged

inaluct

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2009, 05:11:38 pm »

*slow clap*
Logged

cowofdoom78963

  • Bay Watcher
  • check
    • View Profile
Logged

woose1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yay for bandwagons!
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2009, 05:26:49 pm »

*slow clap*
*clap*
Very good, mr.(ms?) Deathworks.... but do you have the will to beat me?
Logged

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2009, 05:34:14 pm »

*clap?*

I don't really think the German "suffering" in guilt is all that weird.  Germany has cleaned it's national slate by being honest and brokering no disagreement.  Other attitudes are much worse, look how Japanese history classes discuss their invasions of Korea and China versus history.  They are a peaceful, democratic country but are still callous about the deaths of millions.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Deathworks

  • Bay Watcher
  • There be no fortress without its feline rulers!
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2009, 05:50:37 pm »

Hello!

Woose1: I am not quite sure why I should try to beat you. I am sorry, but I currently don't see what you mean.

And it is indeed Mr.

Mainiac: The honesty part is the good thing, you are right. However, at the same time, there is this mystic fear attached to it. You are told to accept that it happened, to know what happened back then, but you are not to analyze it or consider how it relates to humanity in general.

I don't know how much internationally is known about it, but Germany is putting up a fight against the so-called "neo-nazi" movement which is seemingly getting stronger and stronger in the country. Besides speaking out against racism, a main focus is hunting down references to the original nazis (flags, emblems, gestures) and you sometimes wonder whether they want to get rid of the thought patterns that are at the base of such criminal behavior, or whether they want to get rid just of the symbols. It seems as if the swastika is the main cause of violence against people, rather than speeches about how there are different races, some superior, some inferior. The symbol has replaced the idea, resulting in ineffective campaigning against the idea and constant re-empowerment of the symbol...

As I said before, I personally consider the holocaust an example of a very terrible human behavior that any civilized society should work against. This requires analyzing and understanding it as a human behavior, and not mystifying it as kind of a "sinister moon landing".

Deathworks
Logged

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How can people still not believe in the Holocaust?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2009, 06:02:02 pm »

Your incredibly rational, if somewhat longwinded, post in this thread has earned you much respect from me, Deathworks. I must ask, are you a history major, or something similar?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 10