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[Fishersalwaysdie]

, I think.

I don't quite see how an idiot could bring a nation as broken as Germany into an economic power that might have won the WWII.
Living in Germany might have altered your perception as it is the country which tries most elaborately to demonstrate the nazi inferiority.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

As I pointed out, he was relying on ideas and concepts that others had provided. The politicians of the time already had good plans sketched out, but they failed to implement them (like the highways).

In addition, you should also note that he was not alone. There were advisors who organized a lot of his campaigns and other stuff, all the down to earth things, you know.

As for Germany today pointing out that nazis were inferior, I highly doubt that. Nazis are extremely mystified and giving arguments as to why Hitler was a complete idiot would probably get you scolded for disrespect towards the victims of the Holocaust. Believe me, if you don't say that nazis were incredible monsters and completely genial in how they created the horror of WW II and the Holocaust, you will at least be frowned upon.

Deathworks

[Martian]

He used the democratic process against itself.

According to my history book Hitler did not do that. The nazis gained massive popularity after the Wall street crash. But not enough for a majority in parliament. In fact nazi popularity was falling off at the end of the Weimar republic and the current president (Hindenburg) was using his emergency powers to virtually rule as a dictator already. Hindenburg was against democracy in the first place and had written to the ex-Kaiser to ask if he supported him being president before becoming president.

Hitler became chancellor due to some scheming in the government (the current chancellor had replaced Von Papen. To get revenge Von Papen persuaded Hindenburg to appoint Hitler and fire the current chancellor. Von Papen was appointed vice-chancellor). Von Papen thought Hitler could be controlled because his popularity was falling and there were a minority of Nazis in the cabinet.

But then the parliament was set on fire and a Dutch communist found guilty of arson. Hitler convinced Hindenburg to pass a law to give him emergency powers and he used it to crush the communists. After banning the communists from parliament and allying with the Centre party he had a majority and used it to pass a law that made the parliament redundant. He could now pass laws.

After Hindenburg died Hitler merged the two posts of Chancellor and President and became Fuhrer.

[chaoticag]

All claims to Hitler being a genius falls apart once he decided to invade Russia. No one has successfully invaded Russia, and the Russian winter brings any invading army to a dead stop.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

Deathworks

Well then, the collective mind of Nazi Germans was the evil genius that performed the holocaust while Hitler stood aside and yelled at random people?

[Strife26]

All claims to Hitler being a genius falls apart once he decided to invade Russia. No one has successfully invaded Russia, and the Russian winter brings any invading army to a dead stop.

Unless you're the Mongol Hordes.

[chaoticag]

Mongol hordes do not use gasoline powered vehicles with wheels on them. Napoleon and the Kaiser both tried to invade Russia before, you'd think he got the idea that there might be a reason why they lost their wars?

Besides, the Winter was cold enough to kill people. You could sit down for a rest after a long march when all of a sudden your spine snaps. Plus his tactics included using tanks to drive en mass towards the enemy, but when the ignition doesn't work, you are pretty much screwed.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Deathworks

Well then, the collective mind of Nazi Germans was the evil genius that performed the holocaust while Hitler stood aside and yelled at random people?

Not quite. The Holocaust was born out of racist ideas that were quite common both in Germany and in the rest of the world at that time. Hitler basically repeated what the drunks and outcasts he had been living with had said and thus was able to become popular by basically saying what people wanted to hear. However, he also obviously believed in that stuff himself, obviously belonging just to that class of people. So, the Holocaust did not just fall from Heaven or wherever, but was created both by the people and Hitler.

However, I am questioning the term "genius" in that context. Where is the genial aspect in the Holocaust making Hitler's "achievement" praiseworthy as something requiring intelligence. He simply blamed the economic crisis, the lost war, and probably even the bad weather on a minority which was always blamed for bad things in the world he grew up in. It certainly does not take a genius to repeat what all the people around you are saying.

The economic success of Germany was, as I said, based on plans of his predecessors, so Hitler has effectively nothing to do with it.

The concentration camps were not his idea either. As far as I know, their theory was proposed by some English scientist and Hitler and his goons simply put that theory to practice.

His military campaign does not seem to have any outside sources as far as we know, so this is the first item in the list we can genuinely attribute to him (minus gadgets like the Stuka). And that campaign is fraught with enough strategic mistakes and inefficient hybris that "genius" is definitely not the term I would associate with it. "Moron" seems much more appropriate.

The Holocaust was an example of mass murder and as such a truly despicable crime, no doubt about that. But, why is there an "evil genius" at work? Riding on racist ideas people already have and offering easy answers to times of crisis does not take a great mind. And as I pointed out, the Germans at that time were not super democratic, freedom loving and tolerant people who somehow got seduced by a genius. They were still caught in thought patterns of monarchy/dictatorship and the seeming failure of the democratic republic in Weimar together with the economic hard times they saw with it made them long for a return to that kind of dictatorship. Putting it bluntly, they wanted someone to take their responsibilities and worries away. Someone who would tell them that life was ordered and everything had its place that should not be challenged rather than having a flexible world of accountable democracy. I don't think it takes a genius to exploit such an agenda, especially if you consider that this was not a hidden but a public sentiment.

I am sorry, but no matter how I turn it, I do not see why I should talk about a "genius" concerning Hitler's regime. The deeds certainly do not seem to warrant that.

Deathworks

[Fishersalwaysdie]

Okay... his predecessors were genius?

[Il Palazzo]

His military campaign does not seem to have any outside sources as far as we know, so this is the first item in the list we can genuinely attribute to him (minus gadgets like the Stuka). And that campaign is fraught with enough strategic mistakes and inefficient hybris that "genius" is definitely not the term I would associate with it. "Moron" seems much more appropriate.

I do not see where is this coming from. Hitler was a politician first and foremost(good or bad, depending on point of view), but he did not organize military campaigns. Sure, he reviewed all plans presented to him by his military staff, he probably did give general directives as to whom to invade etc., but the planning and execution of any military operation was always left to the people in OKW. At least at the begining of the war. Somwhere between the strategic failure of Barbarossa(invasion of USSR), and the siege of Stalingrad, he started to try and direct the German army himself, butting in more and more into the professional miltaryman's domain, with disasterous results - interestingly, around the same time Stalin did exactly the opposite, allowing his generals more flexibility. It's this late behaviour that could be called "moronic", though probably the reason lied not as much as in his limited intellect, as in the need to controll everyhing/lack of trust in his staff.
Also, the Barbarossa was scheduled on May, due to some delays begun on 15th(?) of June, so it's not that they attacked in winter - it was the earliest possible date that ensured the roads of Russia to be usable by the tanks(think of mud in spring).

As for the political skill, the annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia were rather well done, wouldn't you say?

Hitler invented Blitzkrieg

no, of course he didn't.

[Gunner-Chan]

I was about to butt in but Palazzo seems to have out WWII nutted me. Good show there Palazzo!

[Fishersalwaysdie]

I was starting to wonder when a WWII nut will butt in already.

[mainiac]

As for the political skill, the annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia were rather well done, wouldn't you say?

Not really.  Austria wanted to be united, but he did it in such a downright scary fashion that France and England started mobilizing for war.

With Czechoslovakia he burned through all the international patience that Germany had at it's disposal.  He was handed a boon by the peacenik leadership in England and France's willingness to negotiate.  He cashed it in entirely and wasn't left with a dime of bargaining ability in the end.

These actions had benefits, for sure.  But it's not like they didn't have severe consequences.  These petty conquests put France and England on a war footing and ensured that Germany would have very few friends in the world.  Even Italy and Japan weren't delighted.  Mussolini was seriously considering starting a war with Germany and Japan was hopeful of an alliance with the Soviet Union (who, it should be noted, they never declared war on, denying a second front that could have been pivotal.)  The Soviet Union became very wary of Hitler.  They were bought off by Hitler giving them permission to invade the baltic republics, some of the few friends Germany still had.  The US wasn't too pleased either, starting the reversal of a very isolationist sentiment.

Of course... you aren't the biggest disciple of soft power diplomacy, if our struggles in EFS are any guide.  I on the other hand would say that while which what you do is important, what you are still free to do afterwards is the far bigger issue.  Exploiting an advantage and grabbing some territory is all nice and well... but is it worth leaving yourself outgunned in the bigger war to follow?

[Faces of Mu]

Eh, I had a friend who called me a holocaust denier because I refused to use the word "evil" to describe it. My argument was that "evil" is strictly a religious term and connotes the influences of spiritual beings such as spirits and demons. Either that, or connotes the judgement of something as being against "god".

I thought my line of thinking was pretty straight forward, especially when I told him I believed the holocaust was atrocious and said nothing against that.

To the OP, I can appreciate that your friend is willing to question where he gets his knowledge from (his epistemology). I respect that quite a lot.
Although, it sounds like he favours one source of information over another ("not that there's anything wrong with that!":-) )

[Il Palazzo]

nutted

nut

It's like hearing 101st Airborne at Bastogne.

Spoiler: mainiac&off topic rant on IIWW (click to show/hide)

How was Japan hopeful for alliance with USSR? With all the tensions on the Manchuko's borders and as  the later "incident" in 1939(that almost ended up in a full scale war) showed, I'm inclined to think that the Japanese knew what to expect from the Soviets. If no front opened there, then it's more because one side was busy with China, while the other had Hitler to worry about, and not because of Japan's displeasure with Germany's rise to power.

When I'm saying that Czechoslovakia & Austria annexation was a good move, I mean that Hitler managed to pull this out, as you say "cashing in" on the international credit of acceptance, without anyone declaring war on the Reich. Should he stop at that, there'd be no further problems, apart(maybe) from Stalin's own plans for expansion(assuming that he had some, as Suvorov claims).
Mind you that this is the Germany we're talking about - a country that was supposed to stay quiet and calm after the IWW. They did exactly the opposite, and all they heard in response was just some grumbling on the side of other powers.