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[Mikademus]

And this one, also posted by Mikademus.

You make it sound like a bad thing. May I remind you that thread was the one that created the rules we now have and that made your Lord and God Toady set the panel with the rules above the forum. Jeez... :rolleyes:

[Footkerchief]

And this one, also posted by Mikademus.

You make it sound like a bad thing. May I remind you that thread was the one that created the rules we now have and that made your Lord and God Toady set the panel with the rules above the forum. Jeez... :rolleyes:

I do find it a little strange that these meta-threads are one of the sources of the problems they describe, but I give you credit for taking initiative to address a problem, even if I feel you're overstating its severity and urgency.  Also, if you insist on continuing to bring up this Toady = God thing, you should probably respond to this:

I don't mean to sound accusatory, but you were the one who said "Toady replied there in general favour of the idea" and "this forum is not ultimately for our discussion, it is for Da Toad."

[Felblood]

Mikademus, I think you are overstating the negative impact of newbies on the noise levels.

There is a limit to the amount of bickering and disorganization that this forum can support, with it's current infrastructure, and incoming newbies will increase those values on average. The solution is not to close registration and become some kind of secluded, internet monastery. Growth is a natural thing, and the alternative is stagnation and death.

The only logical choice is to welcome newbies in, while improving the infrastructure, so as to accommodate the side effects. Those without anything of value to contribute will get bored and wander off, on their own.

[Mikademus]

Fel, it is possible to read you post as saying that you think I advocate shutting down registrations and turning away newbs. That is absolutely not true. I am in fact 100% for what you said in your main paragraphs, welcome them but provide the structures that will help them and encourage order. That's the reason for my recommendation of mandatory thread tagging (but also the reason I included the point that unique tags can be entered).

(However, I do think you intended your post as first to say that you think I paint a too strong picture of the present situation, and thereafter, separate from that first point, state your view and what you think need to be done, which is apparently very similar to my thinking).

[bjlong]

I'm going to pipe up on this issue one more time, then I'm done with it.

The problem with our infrastructure now is not that it is disorganized in terms of finding topics. The search function does that very well, and the dev pages are easily searchable. The problem is that there is an impulse to create a topic without searching first, because you go into a fey mood or something.

So, make the search function happen or be right there with big bold letters whenever someone creates a new topic. A prompt would help. A function that searches through the suggestions topic and the dev items would help even more, especially with a link right in the topic creation page. Automatically going through the search process and putting up the number of hits when you click "Post" as a warning would help even more.

E: corrected grammar.

[SirHoneyBadger]

That's an excellent suggestion, bjlong--and I see no reason why it couldn't be applied to every new topic, not just for new people.

[Felblood]

Fel, it is possible to read you post as saying that you think I advocate shutting down registrations and turning away newbs. That is absolutely not true. I am in fact 100% for what you said in your main paragraphs, welcome them but provide the structures that will help them and encourage order. That's the reason for my recommendation of mandatory thread tagging (but also the reason I included the point that unique tags can be entered).

(However, I do think you intended your post as first to say that you think I paint a too strong picture of the present situation, and thereafter, separate from that first point, state your view and what you think need to be done, which is apparently very similar to my thinking).

That's weird. Normally, people shorten my name to "Blood", and then only my friends. It took me a bit to realize that wasn't some sort of expletive.

--and yeah. The rest of the post is intended as a more general statement, complete with my standard excessive drama.

I concur with the idea that refining the search tools, and putting them closer to our fingertips is good, but I wonder if that will mean more work for Toady.

Having to confirm your post, against a reminder to search for pre-existing ones, every time you start a new thread is a great idea. It doesn't cost us as much time as it would save us, from redundant posts.

I oppose making the tagging and indexing mandatory. If they are used and valued, people will naturally want to be part of the system.

Part of the reason I want to start an indexing system is because the existence of an index thread will encourage posters to tag their threads, so they can be indexed faster and better. Plus, I'd really like to see more hyperlinking between ideas in here, to facilitate archive delving. I've still got a few hundred pages of threads to read, and I'd like more tools for weeding the dross out.

[Mikademus]

well then, to start this by providing a good example, let's all who have read this thread start indexing/tagging our threads, like... "Blood"... has already done.

[Toady One]

I am fully for treating new people with respect, even beyond what they are due.  There is no excuse for sassing or mocking or yelling at anybody.  Just let me know if there's a problem.  There are guidelines up at the top of the page, and they've probably helped where they are going to help, but with the others, it's not appropriate to come down hard on them.  Be polite when you reply or click report to moderator if you don't feel you can do that and I'll handle it.

I don't think mandatory anything is really going to stop the redundant posting, though it might dent it a little.  Many double posts contain willful acknowledgment of a refusal to search, so the rules are being read.  I don't know how to change the forum software to make searches forced, and I'm not even sure it's a good idea, since it seems abrasive.  I think mandatory user tagging will work for everybody except the people we are concerned about.  Even harsher enforcement of rules with sanctions won't matter, as these are (generally?) first time posters that create a single redundant thread.  Moreover, it's a large investment to get up to speed on what has been said about magic, for example.  It's not realistic to assume somebody will read everything that has been posted at this point.  A redundant post only matters if it stays on the front page.

Regarding subforums, people reference what I said before, but I don't think anybody there or here has replied to my objection at the time, which is that this forum's search function does not respect parent-child relationships (I've tested it on nonsense, and it doesn't work).  You can force it through Footkerchief's failed-search-with-options-link-things, but that doesn't fix the top right search bar.

I think it's important to address the larger concern, and this isn't to stop redundant posting as I'm reading this discussion.  The question is, what more can we get out of the forum structure for the purpose of collecting ideas on highly active topics in the most refined and Synergistic way so that people genuinely interested in building on what already exists can contribute novel material?  Even in a system with no redundant threads, this issue is not addressed, as various related ideas are still not connected unless people are willing to do some massive forum diving, which isn't going to happen in general.

Let's work with the single stickied index idea a bit, and say it indexes non-stickied summary threads for any active topic with more than a few redundant threads.  If the summary threads are living off in their own little child forum, it might keep the front page cleaner.  For especially active/broad ones like magic, I think it's important that the summary threads, as Eagleon points out, be receptive to linking from the OP to side discussions that might spring up in additional threads, rather than trying to work within a single megathread framework.  The summary can link to any active and categorized discussions.  This requires effort and dedicated OPs, but with links in place, it's very easy to help redundant posters along if you like.  As somebody suggested, a template could be provided there to copy-paste in your message if you want.

Now, for most topics, this won't be necessary at all.  There will be single threads as there usually are.  I don't think there are currently so many redundant threads that discussion on any topic is impossible (in the sense that redundant topics fill out the front page), but I think the added structure would help a bit for those that are talked about a lot.  In the end, if a thread is truly redundant, and there is one single nice person posting a link, it'll drop off the front page rapidly, and a glut won't be possible unless this place gets ten times as many people.  At that point, after the nice person says something, threads can be locked and/or deleted, and I can send them a nice PM or something.  I don't know.  That's way far off.

Something like Felblood's index thingy would be part of the process, but just linking to something like Underground Diversity wasn't what I'm getting at.  The Underground Diversity summary would somehow need to incorporate other discussions that come up, if Eagleon's saying he doesn't feel comfortable posting in a single thread like that.  I dunno.  Getting at all the magic threads into a summarized form that then links off to whatever people are talking about and then continues to build that into the summary sounds like a pain in the ass to me, but the lack of that sort of structure is what I hear people complaining about here.  Not so much the redundant threads themselves.  I haven't decided on anything, so please don't start creating anything now.  I'm not sure if the best system might not even involve me being the one OPing those threads.  It depends.

A/the wiki would probably be better for that sort of interaction, but as the wiki is more easily mutable and not under my control and not as easily checked for newness, I would not be able to use it easily for dev.  People have suggested specific dev-suggestion-management software in the past, I think.  I'm not sure if it's time to revisit that.  My current routine is fine for me...  I think the concern is that you guys aren't necessarily enjoying what's going on suggestion-wise, and don't feel you are able to put your best into helping me make the game better, or however you want to say it.  The only extent that I need to be thought of is that anything I refer back to needs to be under my control and relatively static, or it's worthless to me as development notes, and new suggestions need to be easy enough to catalog (the current system is fine for that).  The main thing about the SMF forum that's convenient is that we have some people that understand its inner workings, it has a lot of posts and I feel comfortable with it.

--

Regarding the red necro text -- that is SMF, not me.  I don't even know if I can turn it off for the suggestion board.

[Capntastic]

Really, the issue for me is that 'redundant posters' are redundant solely because they haven't worked to integrate themselves with the community and get themselves up to speed on suggestions/where the game is v. where it's headed, etc.   Anything that makes it easier for someone to hop in and join proper discussion is a great benefit.

There are many ways to do this, but all of them require some level of effort and upkeep, otherwise it is useless.

[Faces of Mu]

Really, the issue for me is that 'redundant posters' are redundant solely because they haven't worked to integrate themselves with the community and get themselves up to speed on suggestions/where the game is v. where it's headed, etc.   Anything that makes it easier for someone to hop in and join proper discussion is a great benefit.

There are many ways to do this, but all of them require some level of effort and upkeep, otherwise it is useless.

I seem to feel that the best and only document of such standard is Toady's own Dev page. It has what he's working on now, soon, later, and eventually. It doesn't stop repeat posts, but it helps bring new forum goers up to speed to some extent. Toady works on his dev page, we work on our patience and respect. It's a great system if we each do our part.

[Capntastic]

Trying to get some people to skim that is like pulling teeth, much less read it in-depth.    If they did so willingly, we would not have this problem.

[profit]

Trying to get some people to skim that is like pulling teeth, much less read it in-depth.    If they did so willingly, we would not have this problem.

LOL or we can all just ignore them or maybe give them a single message with a relevant link.  The signal to noise here is not too bad....  The people who post a lot know the rules, the people who post a single message and are never heard from again don't.

But they only posted a single message and if we ignore it it will drop off the screen in a day and never be seen from again.

[Mikademus]

I had another suggestion a while ago that might mesh with the thoughts Toady laid out above, a special sub-forum with "golden threads" (or some other name) where the better reference threads are kept. In this forum all threads are open for replies, but only mods can move threads there or start new threads.

[Drakale]

A slashdot-style karma system would be cool. But instead of number we could use DF Quality modifiers, then we could have -Tread- about some new feature, XXthreadXX about multithreading, etc...

Won't happen because this seem like much efforts that would be better put on the game, but i can dream