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[Captain Mayday]

I really think the problem is being overstated more than a touch.
Megathreads have their utility in being a central location for ideas, and in the best method they would be post-discussion. They can consist of a grouping of related ideas all in one spot.
Normal threads can be the discussions about singular ideas. If they seem to gain interest, possibly they can join the megathread.

But ultimately this is not a question of organisation, but of manners. Treat others as you'd wish to be treated.
It is just as easy to write a pleasant post to inform a new poster that an idea has already been well and truly discussed as it is to make a snarky post. Since we all post here and want to enjoy the forums, I'd suggest that the former method is more conducive to that goal.

[Granite26]

You know, now that I think about it (and having read the Guard Post suggestion thread), I'm wondering if a suggestion thread is one of the exceptions to the blanket necroposting etiquette rules? Not many discussion groups have or require a suggestion thread like this one, and therefore maybe the context of this forum means that necroposting is not an issue. For the other forums here, Toady's warning about posting to old threads would definitely still stand. Thoughts?

That's how I feel, 100%  I think it should even be at the top 'necro posting encouraged'

Megathreads (ALL UD, INVENTIONS OR MAGIC IN ONE PLACE) are one thing, and maybe a second, subsidiary discussion.  There are especially the difficulties Eagleon points out.  However, a discussion about something smaller, like 'mining carts' or 'guard posts' or 'gunpowder' could benefit from having the OP and other people being exposed to the broader forum's ideas before they start talking about it.

Possibly separating the common thread types (UD, Magic, TECH, AI/PROGRAMMING, NEW ITEMS, NEW TAGS) into catagories with a stickied, no discussion list of what's been said.  Hopefully we can expect new users to properly catagorize their request and scan the first page (although that hasn't always been the case)

[Footkerchief]

But ultimately this is not a question of organisation, but of manners.

I agree.  There's no reason to make it so personal when somebody registers to post a gunpowder/carts/magic/multithreading thread.  If you get frustrated at having to repeatedly pull up links to the older threads and post them in the new ones, just make a "gunpowder.txt" with a polite stock reply and a list of links.

On the other hand, it might be helpful to have a SINGLE "Common Suggestions" sticky with a list of topics and links to threads that contain new ideas.  What I really don't want to see is a sticky for EACH of those topics -- I fucking loathe forums that present newbies with a dozen 40-page stickies with the top one saying "Make sure to read all the stickies first!"

I think I'd be up for creating and maintaining this thread myself if people think it's a good idea.  Mostly it depends on Toady as there's not much point unless it's stickied.

[Granite26]

I agree with you there, a single (small) list is the way to go, but how do you determine what gets in? All original suggestions is too much, and any culling would hurt somebodies feelings.  Maybe just the oft list?

No comment about sub-fora?

[Neonivek]

The second issue of Megathreads is that while they are in the public eye people seem to have the idea that all threads that are SOMEWHAT linked to them need to be inside the megathread.

I am glad that trend with the Underground Diversity thread died down. Anything that happened underground or lived underground was refered to that thread.

[sproingie]

I'm de-lurking now since I thought I'd add what I think is a bigger perspective:

The problem might be overstated, but communities are all about friendliness and inclusiveness, and that includes good manners.  Dwarf Fortress has zero marketing budget.  Its viability depends on the community.  Poor manners in the community costs Bay12 Games money partly when people get turned off and don't contribute, but more because others are just less likely to hear about it.

So let's be nice, and be patient, out of self-interest if nothing else.

[Footkerchief]

I agree with you there, a single (small) list is the way to go, but how do you determine what gets in? All original suggestions is too much, and any culling would hurt somebodies feelings.  Maybe just the oft list?

No comment about sub-fora?

Just the "oft list," yeah -- the ones that get posted once a month and make the regulars foam at the mouth.  I'm talking about maybe a half dozen topics like guns and magic.  I don't think the less common ones are a real problem at all, those can be handled on a case-by-case basis by the members who know better than to throw around shit like "spamming noob."

I feel like subforums would make Suggestions less approachable and cause even more tedious bitching about how threads aren't getting posted in the right place and Newbies Are Literally Ruining This Forum.

[Mikademus]

I for one am one of those that's getting annoyed with the unceasing thread duplication. For a small game this is no problem, for DF with almost 300 pages in the suggestion forum, this is a heck of a problem because (1) good suggestions and debated are drowned, and (2) this forum is not ultimately for our discussion, it is for Da Toad to find (and re-find) good suggestions, and all noise is counter-productive.

Do not ignore this or wave it off, this IS a real problem here.

Moderation has been suggested before, even by me in a form or two, but it's really not a good idea. I've had as many bad experiences with moderators as I have with others, and Toady's the only one I trust with that kind pf power--myself included.

These forums remain remarkably pleasant and self-sufficient, without additional moderation.

In general I agree with SHB, and would like to add that moderators always risk becoming pricks. The best moderation is self-moderation. However, we need to HELP instill that, and I have given several suggestions to this end previously.

The most recent is my thread "[Forum] Request mandatory prefix tags to posts in suggestions forum" where I suggest that all posts in the suggestion forum MUST be affixed by a tag (from a drop-down list or from an input box (both are available)) which will be prefixed to the topic in the forum. Toady replied there in general favour of the idea, and suggested back that sub-forums might be easier to implement.

It was in reference to this thread that Capri said:

What about sub-categories within the suggestions forum?

If people aren't going to read the rules atop the forum, obscuring places where they should post would be bad.

Having visible "MAGIC", "TRANSPORT", etc threads, right on the page, would be slightly better.   Visibility is the tool we need to employ.

Another suggestion there was when n3wbs make threads there will be an auto-search before they can actually submit.

[Footkerchief]

it is for Da Toad to find (and re-find) good suggestions

1. He's said he looks at all of the threads anyway, so I'm not sure any system of categorization will reduce the number of threads he has to look at.
2. He saves links to notable threads in his own dev files, so he doesn't need help finding the good ones again.

[Mikademus]

it is for Da Toad to find (and re-find) good suggestions

1. He's said he looks at all of the threads anyway, so I'm not sure any system of categorization will reduce the number of threads he has to look at.
2. He saves links to notable threads in his own dev files, so he doesn't need help finding the good ones again.

And I'm sure his napkin-note system is infallible and that he never has a need to check the forum. And I'm sure that no-one else needs this or searches the forum either. So you're right, we don't need any structure, and assisting in providing a structure is the height of folly. In fact, let's remove this unnecessary time-sink nonsense of thread topics and post dates, they're just a waste of bits anyway.

Put in a less sarcastic way, your reply is tangential.

Seriously though, what's with the hostility to necessary improvement?

[edit] Sorry for the hostile reply, am in a poor mood tonight

[Capntastic]

To those of you who think megathreads stifle multiple threads of conversation, I'll point out that SA's megathreads are proof of the opposite:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2917631

This thread alone has everything someone would need to get up to speed on DF, as well as Q&A, a sense of community within the thread, etc. The OP doesn't 'own' the thread, as I believe Granite26 was trying to say would happen.   I think it would be more than possible for all of the constant suggestions to be housed in megathreads as both a means of visibility and a way to bolster useful discussion.

 (Apologies if SA's closed to non-members at the time.)

[Faces of Mu]

Faces of Mu: Would you mind copying Toady's warning into this thread? I'd like to get to the bottom of that particular mystery.

When you reply to an old thread, it says in red, unbolded font at the top of the post 'editing' page:
"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic."

[Footkerchief]

And I'm sure his napkin-note system is infallible and that he never has a need to check the forum.

Not sure where you're getting "napkin-note system" from.  Judging from what Toady's said, the dev items he posts are only a brief summary of the real thing, which is highly detailed and organized, with more detailed cross-referencing, code insertion points, etc.

And I'm sure that no-one else needs this or searches the forum either.

You're the one who just said "this forum is not ultimately for our discussion."  In that light, I think it was reasonable for me to address your argument that this is something that Toady needs.

Seriously though, what's with the hostility to necessary improvement?

Don't mean to repeat myself, but since you're asking: I feel the tagging system as you present it would intimidate potential contributors.  Clearly some people feel that newbies need to be intimidated more, but I don't.  The tagging Toady expressed support for was fundamentally different -- done by him in a way that makes sense to him, not done by newbies who will probably either misuse the tagging system or be completely discouraged by it.

[Capntastic]

Clearly some people feel that newbies need to be intimidated more, but I don't. 

It's not about intimidation.   It's about finding a way to get people that want to be welcomed into the community up to speed and integrated with the community and not just showing up with a driveby 'really cool' suggestion for multithreading or minecarts or something.   Many of 'em seem to ignore or disregard the rules entirely, so either make it easier for them to follow the rules intuitively, or enforcing the rules we do have in some way.

[Mikademus]

There needs to be a structure, or we will get the worst of both worlds: chaos AND pissed regulars. Not a good combination. That will generally lead to hastily designated moderators and draconian measures, and we suddenly get alienation and recrimination. All of us with some intarweb experience have been there already.

As was said in a reply in "my" thread I linked to, tag-system generally works well and make it easy to search for particular topics and existing threads (especially if you can click a tag to list all of that category), as well as give rough estimates of what has already been suggested. It is a gentle and non-intrusive way to indicate what's desired and the discipline required in a place like this.

Another way would be to track the first time someone posts and display a message in huge letters saying "MAKE CERTAIN YOU HAVE ALREADY SEARCHED TO SEE IF A THREAD ABOUT THIS ALREADY EXISTS OR YOU WILL BE BANNED^h^h^h^h^h^hEATEN BY HFS"