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[Capntastic]

Which is why having someone uninvolved, like a mod, make it, would be best.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Threads are better as "living things", in my opinion, and just because you're the OP, doesn't mean that you should be able to have ultimate power over that particular subject of discussion, forever and ever, amen.

Copyrighting is only a good thing for 1 person, and that's the person holding that particular copyright.

It doesn't do anyone else a damn bit of good, and while holding a copyright may help earn that person a living, it also stifles anyone else who might come along and improve upon it. That's just an integral part of it's function.   

Egos aside, the only ones getting fed here are Toady and ThreeToe.

And moderators are never "uninvolved". Even Toady's involved, as a moderator, because it's his game.

I'm against and opposed to any additional official moderation.

People can just continue to treat other people in a responsible manner, with respect and politeness--by choice, without a second option, and without a chaperone constantly looking over their shoulder--just because it's the best thing they can do to make the game better.

And I don't care if that sounds naive.

The fact remains that if someone seriously tries to fuck other people over-whether they're brand new to the forum, or whether they've been here for a million years-they're hurting DF, they're slowing down progress, and they're distracting Toady from his work.

[Capntastic]

I don't see how having set megathreads for discussion would equate to copyright or whatever you're trying to say.   It'd just be a solid solution to prevent the literally hundreds of redundant threads, which maybe have three or four posts each, that drown out the existing ones.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I don't have a problem with megathreads at all, if people want to make them. Infact, I think they're a great idea. I made one myself, for inventions.

I think they should exist as an alternative to individual posts, rather than as a "mill" into which individual posts are fed, and annihilated.

In other words: Both types of posts can exist side by side. Both styles have their strengths, and weaknesses.

Then, if people want to point out their existence, and can do so in a polite, helpful, and respectful manner, I have no problem with that, as long as it doesn't require, or imply, conformity.

[Capntastic]

A megathread with a well maintained original post is more condusive to fruitful discussion and brainstorming than fifty redundant threads with little to no content.

I'll note your using words like conformity and moderation with marked derision, which is unfortunate because the DF community is growing at a very swift rate, and likewise so have the torrents of useless suggestions.   There exists a point where a balance must be struck between 'conformity' and 'moderation' and a (though nice in theory) laissez faire attitude.   Otherwise the community's ability to maintain itself in a coherent fashion is inhibited.

This very thread is indicative that such problems are starting to get to people.   

The suggestion that people new to the community shouldn't have to follow or even learn the rules before posting is, to me, awful.   If I wanted to join and be welcomed into any group, I would do what I could to learn the ropes, spoken and unspoken, to avoid stepping on toes.  This is etiquette.   Trying to equate basic etiquette with some vague notion of an authoritarian regime is unproductive.

To avoid longwindedness, I'll summarize:
Having defined megathreads would allow 'key suggestions' to be discussed in an easily visible way.
Megathreads would cut down on redundant threads, and allow new members to read and digest before posting.
Having moderators, even 'powerless' in a forum-sense, would allow new members a channel to privately message and ask for clarifications and guidance concerning threads, etc. 
Some embracement of the "Read and search before post" rule would also cut down on low-content, redundant threads.

[tsen]

Two bits:

1. Allow the OP of a thread to delete it, that way said newbie can delete it and post in a pre-existing thread if it's a good idea.

2. Pin a frequently updated "READ THIS FIRST" thread with links to most relevant threads so that people will see, "oh, right, <X> idea fits with that thread, I'll go post there"

Better to solve the problem by making it require less effort.

[SirHoneyBadger]

A megathread with a well maintained original post is more condusive to fruitful discussion and brainstorming than fifty redundant threads with little to no content.

I'll note your using words like conformity and moderation with marked derision, which is unfortunate because the DF community is growing at a very swift rate, and likewise so have the torrents of useless suggestions.   There exists a point where a balance must be struck between 'conformity' and 'moderation' and a (though nice in theory) laissez faire attitude.   Otherwise the community's ability to maintain itself in a coherent fashion is inhibited.

This very thread is indicative that such problems are starting to get to people.  

The suggestion that people new to the community shouldn't have to follow or even learn the rules before posting is, to me, awful.   If I wanted to join and be welcomed into any group, I would do what I could to learn the ropes, spoken and unspoken, to avoid stepping on toes.  This is etiquette.   Trying to equate basic etiquette with some vague notion of an authoritarian regime is unproductive.

To avoid longwindedness, I'll summarize:
Having defined megathreads would allow 'key suggestions' to be discussed in an easily visible way.
Megathreads would cut down on redundant threads, and allow new members to read and digest before posting.
Having moderators, even 'powerless' in a forum-sense, would allow new members a channel to privately message and ask for clarifications and guidance concerning threads, etc. 
Some embracement of the "Read and search before post" rule would also cut down on low-content, redundant threads.

You make a lot of very good points, but the problem with the community accepting new people has been going on for atleast as long as I've been on these forums.

Infact, I was subject to attack myself when I first came here, just for posting an original idea. I had to ask Toady for assistance (which was embarassing), and after that, I stayed away for a long time.

And I assure you-whatever failings I may have had, or mistakes I may have made-I actually took the time to do my forum homework.

That problem is both immediate and serious.

The potential problems that might (and yes, I think there's a good chance they will, I won't deny that, but our shared opinion isn't proof) arise from an increasing influx of new members are neither as immediate, or as serious, or as well-defined.

I totally agree that people should read the rules before posting. Do I have a way to assure that they will? Nope.

Do I think they should be hunted through the night with torches and pitchforks if they fail to do a Search or step on a few toes in some other manner? Nope.

Maybe during the process of registering, they could be presented with a set of basic "social ettiquet in the Forum" rules, and required to click a button to show that they have, before the registering process is completed.

There's not a lot of rules here, afterall.

And maybe people could cut them some slack, too, because it's a two-sided issue, and a lot of it is rooted in prejudice against new people.

As far as your "powerless moderators" idea, I already suggested it, and it didn't get a lot of support.

I also suggested having a section of the Forum that *would* have regular, empowered, moderators. The answer I got back was something to the effect that the idea of a "newbie petting zoo" was repellant.

Apparently, "newbie arena" is more palatable.

I definitely think it would be great if we had some kind of organized volunteer program for people who have been here a year or more to answer questions and PMs for new people.

I'd gladly volunteer for that.

The sad thing, though, is that seniority seems to rule the day. I've made mistakes myself, that have gotten new members trampled.

Before the problem of too many new people coming in gets solved, we need to solve the problem of too many new people coming in, and then getting chased away, just because they're new people who don't know what's going on.

[Faces of Mu]

What about sub-categories within the suggestions forum? Does subdividing suggestions into common themes help newer posters realise that a) There's a lot of history behind the suggestions forum, and b) Suggestions are better separated and titled under each type of suggestion being made (rather than those posts called "Just a few suggestions...").
I know uncontrolled subdividing has the potential to cause more confusion than it's worth, but just one more tier for this forum might make things a bit clearer AND make posters think more about their upcoming editorial.

[Capntastic]

What about sub-categories within the suggestions forum?

If people aren't going to read the rules atop the forum, obscuring places where they should post would be bad.

Having visible "MAGIC", "TRANSPORT", etc threads, right on the page, would be slightly better.   Visibility is the tool we need to employ.

[SirHoneyBadger]

It would be hard to judge that idea without actually looking at it, but I think it has some merit, Faces of Mu.

Anything to make it easier to navigate the 15 billion posts on the Forum would likely be beneficial.

If they're to be taken as a whole, ofcourse that begs the question of who gets to sort through them all, and put them all into their proper categories. And then spend 6 more months resorting and managing them.

I'd very much rather not have Toady or ThreeToe spending their time doing that.

I could be mistaken, but there might have been some talk about possibly moving the Forum to other servers, at some point. If that should ever happen, then maybe this idea could be put into use?

The Forum's been around for so long though, and there's so many, many posts, that it might just be for the best to leave it alone and go on as we have been.

Or else just trash (better yet, leave behind intact, but I don't have any idea how much bandwidth that would cost...) everything that Toady's had time to sort through and make note of, and start over more or less fresh.

As Capntastic mentions: there's something of a dearth of clear, concise labelling on the Forum.

That could be improved, simply enough.

I think people could be directed, in a natural way, to areas where their interests lie, and which process could make use of subforums, but there again, visibility and clearly labeled directions would be powerful.

For that matter, one of the reasons that the almighty Rules aren't read is that they aren't shoved in peoples' faces.

I reiterate that they could be required reading for all members, both new and old.

[Faces of Mu]

You know, now that I think about it (and having read the Guard Post suggestion thread), I'm wondering if a suggestion thread is one of the exceptions to the blanket necroposting etiquette rules? Not many discussion groups have or require a suggestion thread like this one, and therefore maybe the context of this forum means that necroposting is not an issue. For the other forums here, Toady's warning about posting to old threads would definitely still stand. Thoughts?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Faces of Mu: Would you mind copying Toady's warning into this thread? I'd like to get to the bottom of that particular mystery.

Personally, I'm absolutely balls-out for thread necromancy-provided ofcourse it's of quality and interest-but I know there's some antipathy concerning it. I'm just not cognizant of the source of it all...

I mean, after all thread necromancy *is* a form of compression, and sometimes old ideas can themselves take on new forms, upon reexamination.

Hollywood, in recent years, proves me out very well on this assertation. Perhaps cynically.

[Tormy]

Well, yeah this is a serious problem indeed. I've created a Master List of Suggestions thread a while ago:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23934.0

The problem is, that it's a sorta "subjective list" of suggestions. So it's possible that 5 different users have suggested the same stuff, and I choose 1 thread out of that 5, which I add to the master list. This could lead to some problems, since some users might/will be unhappy, if their suggestion won't make it to the list.
Now that I think about it...perhaps there is a good solution. Always add the oldest topic about a specific suggestion to the master list...I don't know, maybe this could work.

[Neonivek]

The only problem is what I call "Expansion". Many suggestions can be expanded or added onto. Often turning "Use the search button" into plain harassment.

Interesting to note... that the board (so in effect Toady) itself suggests you make new topics rather then revive old ones with new suggestions within the same subject!

[Eagleon]

Problem with "megathreads": The discussion in any particular thread is linear. If a person has an idea relating to a broad term like 'magic', they shouldn't feel like they're barging in at random (ignoring current conversation) in order to suggest it. If they're currently discussing Alchemy or the possible mathematics of Moon Magic, I know I'd be loathe to fire in an idea related to its interface until I had an excuse. If I were forced to post there and nowhere else, if it were made a part of "forum ettiquette" here, I'd start to feel very unwelcome and alienated. Since I've been here for years without that problem (which is very rare for any forum with me), that bothers me more than a little.